Author Topic: Duchesse de Bourgogne technique?  (Read 6770 times)

Offline nateo

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Duchesse de Bourgogne technique?
« on: May 29, 2012, 08:01:47 PM »
My wife is crazy for this beer, and I wanted to make something similar. Any ideas where to start? I can usually get a decent idea of where to start by tasting the beer, but I can't figure out what's going on in this one.

I usually do the fast-lacto, sour wort technique with my sours. I'm generally pleased with the level of sourness and control I have over those, but I'm not sure how to get the subtle funky notes of the Duchesse. Brett is an obvious choice, but I've also heard that Pedio can give funky sourness. I'm thinking of doing an all-Brett ferment on part of it, and doing a fast-lacto ferment on the other part.

Any chance I'll be able to culture the dregs? IIRC they filter the yeast out of this beer, so I guess the junk at the bottom is just the bugs?
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Offline tschmidlin

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Re: Duchesse de Bourgogne technique?
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2012, 11:00:28 PM »
Get some Wyeast Roeselare, it makes a great Flanders red.  I haven't quite cloned Duchesse, but I'm not trying to.  Still, my wife loves the Duchesse and she loves my Flanders.

Follow Jamil's method of intentionally under attenuating the beer and then pitch the bugs.
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Offline skyler

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Re: Duchesse de Bourgogne technique?
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2012, 11:46:17 PM »
Doesn't Duchesse have sacharine, too?

Online hopfenundmalz

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Re: Duchesse de Bourgogne technique?
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2012, 04:36:33 AM »
Doesn't Duchesse have sacharine, too?
Yes. The European label has to list it, the US label does not.

I am more of a Rodenbach Grand Cru fan.
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Offline nateo

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Re: Duchesse de Bourgogne technique?
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2012, 06:40:36 AM »
I am more of a Rodenbach Grand Cru fan.

I've never tried that one. I was reading through the reviews over on BA, and it looks like it's got a big cherry flavor, and is fairly dark.

I've been experimenting with wine yeast in beer ferments, and it sounds like this beer would be a good candidate for some BM45. I've had good results lacto-souring half the wort, and using a wine strain in that, and blending with the other half that had a "regular" yeast ferment. The poor attenuation from the wine half makes it pretty well balanced.

Does Brett need dextrins, or would it eat the maltotriose that the wine yeast couldn't metabolize?

I'm thinking of taking my standard BDS recipe, and scaling it down for this: a base of pils malt, with some special B, maybe some raisins, and some fruit-forward candi syrup.
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Offline kylekohlmorgen

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Re: Duchesse de Bourgogne technique?
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2012, 06:54:27 AM »
Does Brett need dextrins, or would it eat the maltotriose that the wine yeast couldn't metabolize?

I like to leave some dextrins, but that depends on how much cherry/funk you want. As I remember, Duchesse has a lot of cherry and a fair amount of funky brett. Its also SUPER sour, most of which comes from their Lacto.

I worked through Jamil's procedure, and I got great, sharp acidity with mild funk - it was just a bit musty about 1.5 yrs in.

I really like the Roselare blend. Wild yeasts are expensive and you're most likely going to end up unbalanced pitching them separately. Also, the lacto can stop short of the acidity you want. Roselare has a pedio strain as well.

Coming full circle, the Brett and pedio work in tandem, so more dextrins will help you get more funk AND more acidity (while cleaning up any diacetyl from the Pedio).

*EDIT - BRETT cleans up diacetyl from pedio
« Last Edit: May 30, 2012, 08:30:25 AM by kylekohlmorgen »
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Re: Duchesse de Bourgogne technique?
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2012, 08:08:32 AM »
Does Brett need dextrins, or would it eat the maltotriose that the wine yeast couldn't metabolize?

I like to leave some dextrins, but that depends on how much cherry/funk you want. As I remember, Duchesse has a lot of cherry and a fair amount of funky brett. Its also SUPER sour, most of which comes from their Lacto.

I worked through Jamil's procedure, and I got great, sharp acidity with mild funk - it was just a bit musty about 1.5 yrs in.

I really like the Roselare blend. Wild yeasts are expensive and you're most likely going to end up unbalanced pitching them separately. Also, the lacto can stop short of the acidity you want. Roselare has a pedio strain as well.

Coming full circle, the lacto and pedio work in tandem, so more dextrins will help you get more funk AND more acidity (while cleaning up any diacetyl from the Pedio).
The Brett cleans up the diacetyl from the Pedio.
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Offline kylekohlmorgen

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Re: Duchesse de Bourgogne technique?
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2012, 08:30:52 AM »
The Brett cleans up the diacetyl from the Pedio.

Oops - typo. Fixed it!
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Offline nateo

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Re: Duchesse de Bourgogne technique?
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2012, 05:00:54 PM »
Would a Brett secondary benefit from a starter? If I plan to ferment part of the wort with Brett as a primary yeast, how would I go about making a starter for it? Does it need wort, or would dextrose work?
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Offline kylekohlmorgen

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Re: Duchesse de Bourgogne technique?
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2012, 06:22:07 AM »
Nah - if you buy a blend the brett wont take off until way after primary, anyway. The important thing for brett is a variety of complex sugars, dextrins, and carbs to take in during the long haul.

I've never done a brett starter, other than adding fresh wort to my house culture - and thats normally not in line with brewing a wild beer. I probably would only do one for a 100% brett fermentation.
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Offline nateo

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Re: Duchesse de Bourgogne technique?
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2012, 06:57:23 AM »
Nah - if you buy a blend the brett wont take off until way after primary, anyway. The important thing for brett is a variety of complex sugars, dextrins, and carbs to take in during the long haul.

I've heard of people adding the Brett strain in primary with the S. yeast. Does that make it harder to reuse? If I was planning on cold-crashing and racking to secondary, so I could reuse the Brett. Is that necessary to keep the strains separate?
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Offline kylekohlmorgen

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Re: Duchesse de Bourgogne technique?
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2012, 11:22:05 AM »
Cold crashing will probably shock and stall the Lacto, which provides the bulk of the acidity in a Flanders Red.

You can wait a lot longer than normal (2-3 weeks) to rack over to floc out most of the Sacc. Most belgian strains are low flocculators, so you won't get it completely clear in primary, but the small amount of Sacc. that comes over into secondary won't hurt anything in the long run, and it will clear up after 1-3 years of aging.

I pitch all the bugs at once (with house strains or a blend). Brett/pedio can be pitched later, but they dont affect primary fermentation. To get the sourness of Dutchess, lacto should be pitched in primary.
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Offline nateo

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Re: Duchesse de Bourgogne technique?
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2012, 11:29:22 AM »
Cold crashing will probably shock and stall the Lacto, which provides the bulk of the acidity in a Flanders Red.

If I do the fast-lacto up front, the souring should be done by the time it's ready for the primary ferment.

it will clear up after 1-3 years of aging.

I can't wait that long. The thing I like about the fast-lacto method is that it only takes a few more days than a "standard" beer to brew. The Brett will take a while to do its thing (planning on 6 months) but otherwise this should be done as soon as the Brett is done.
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Offline kylekohlmorgen

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Re: Duchesse de Bourgogne technique?
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2012, 12:12:26 PM »
A good healthy starter of lacto and high ferm temps will get you a solid tartness PDQ.

I don't bother with it because I'm waiting on the brett anyway AND I like the depth of acidity provided by the combo of lacto and pedio at celler temps. I'm also starting to get a rotation of funky stuff to curb my impatience.

I don't even sample before 6 months, but I keep my carboys in the basement ~65F. You're initial high temps for the lacto will speed up the Brett's growth cycle, but it will also decrease ester production. You'll probably still have a dull (albeit tart) beer at 6 months.

Good thing is - if it isnt ready, you can stash it until it is.
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Offline nateo

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Re: Duchesse de Bourgogne technique?
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2012, 12:11:17 PM »
After some more thinking, I'm looking at something like this:
(Split 40L batch, 20L or so to be pre-soured)
First half:
OG - 1.050-ish
10 IBU (Magnum?)
95%-100% pale/pils, maybe 5% special B (steeping grain), dark candi syrup to get the color dialed in.
Primary ferment with BM45, then B. lambicus in secondary.

Second half:
1.040-ish
10 IBU (Nelson Sauvin)
100% pale/pils
Primary ferment with K1V-1116, then B. lambicus in secondary, with 1oz or so dry hop of Nelson a few days before bottling.
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