Author Topic: Cold Crashing Starter  (Read 490 times)

Offline flbrewer

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Cold Crashing Starter
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2015, 03:29:25 PM »
Unless we are talking about a huge starter, crashing isn't really necessary.  I almost never crash my starters.  I pitch the entire contents of the starter vessel.  However, then again, I do not use a yeast stress inducing stir plate.

So you're suggesting I just pitch it all tomorrow even though it may not be done at that point? I thought the consensus was to only pitch it all when it was at the peak.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2015, 03:33:13 PM by flbrewer »

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: Cold Crashing Starter
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2015, 03:43:23 PM »
Unless we are talking about a huge starter, crashing isn't really necessary.  I almost never crash my starters.  I pitch the entire contents of the starter vessel.  However, then again, I do not use a yeast stress inducing stir plate.

So you're suggesting I just pitch it all tomorrow even though it may not be done at that point? I thought the consensus was to only pitch it all when it was at the peak.

quite likely it will be done. but then again, you could just throw it in fridge now and then pitch it tomorrow. this last thursday, i removed some slurry from y IPA and made a small 1L starter. it took off in about 2 hours and peaked at about 7 hours. i put it in fridge and took it out the next day and pitched about 400ml after partial decant. my new IPA took off in about 10 hrs and is going wicked strong. i've done this the last few batches and beer is as good as ever.
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Online S. cerevisiae

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Re: Cold Crashing Starter
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2015, 09:01:29 AM »
So you're suggesting I just pitch it all tomorrow even though it may not be done at that point? I thought the consensus was to only pitch it all when it was at the peak.

It does not matter if fermentation is complete or not, crashing and decanting is optional if one is not using a yeast stress inducing stir plate.  The only thing that not decanting will do is dilute your final gravity a bit; therefore, wait until after you pitch to take your hydrometer sample.
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Just say "no" to yeast rinsing
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=19850.msg252492#msg252492

A pale ale losing points for being too pale is like a vicar being defrocked for being too godly. It is no wonder that beer judges get such a bad rap.  - Graham Wheeler

Offline narcout

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Re: Cold Crashing Starter
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2015, 10:48:58 AM »
To me, crashing and decanting is about not wanting to dilute the beer.  However, I also don't particularly care for the flavor of unhopped DME that was been warm fermented, regardless of whether or not the starter has  been made with a stir plate.

Offline Philbrew

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Re: Cold Crashing Starter
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2015, 02:39:31 PM »
So you're suggesting I just pitch it all tomorrow even though it may not be done at that point? I thought the consensus was to only pitch it all when it was at the peak.

It does not matter if fermentation is complete or not, crashing and decanting is optional if one is not using a yeast stress inducing stir plate.  The only thing that not decanting will do is dilute your final gravity a bit; therefore, wait until after you pitch to take your hydrometer sample.
Except you will dilute your gravity a significant amount if you follow the size recommendations of the online yeast calculators.  I now believe that the online yeast calculators think that you will let the starter work to completion, crash and decant even if you're not using a stir plate.  I did a waaaaay too big shake-to-all-foam starter based on what MrMalty was saying that I needed for a shaken starter.  If you pitch a starter at or near high krausen those yeasties are in high gear.  You can make a much smaller starter than the calculators call for.  By pitching a 3-1/2 L starter in a 6 gal. (final vol.) lager, I didn't just reduce lagtime, I eliminated it altogether.  Unnecessary.

Online S. cerevisiae

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Re: Cold Crashing Starter
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2015, 03:07:31 PM »
Except you will dilute your gravity a significant amount if you follow the size recommendations of the online yeast calculators.  I now believe that the online yeast calculators think that you will let the starter work to completion, crash and decant even if you're not using a stir plate.  I did a waaaaay too big shake-to-all-foam starter based on what MrMalty was saying that I needed for a shaken starter.  If you pitch a starter at or near high krausen those yeasties are in high gear.  You can make a much smaller starter than the calculators call for.  By pitching a 3-1/2 L starter in a 6 gal. (final vol.) lager, I didn't just reduce lagtime, I eliminated it altogether.  Unnecessary.

You are correct.  Pitching at high krausen allows one to reduce the required pitch rate by at least one half without a degradation in performance.  That's because one is pitching yeast cells that are still in the exponential phase.  Waiting until the culture has completed fermentation places the cells in a quiescent state where they have to reverse survival-related morphological changes that occurred at the end of fermentation before being able to go to work.  A culture that has reached quiescence also has low ergosterol and unsaturated fatty acid reserves.  These reserves have to be rebuilt when the culture is pitched, increasing dissolved O2 requirements.


 
Mark V.

Just say "no" to yeast rinsing
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=19850.msg252492#msg252492

A pale ale losing points for being too pale is like a vicar being defrocked for being too godly. It is no wonder that beer judges get such a bad rap.  - Graham Wheeler

Offline narcout

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Re: Cold Crashing Starter
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2015, 03:13:30 PM »
You can make a much smaller starter than the calculators call for.  By pitching a 3-1/2 L starter in a 6 gal. (final vol.) lager, I didn't just reduce lagtime, I eliminated it altogether.

Yes, but yeast growth in beer can have flavor consequences.

3.5 liters of starter wort in a 6 gallon (inclusive of starter) batch means roughly 15% of your volume is starter wort.  That seems undesirably high to me.

Offline Philbrew

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Re: Cold Crashing Starter
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2015, 04:35:02 PM »
You can make a much smaller starter than the calculators call for.  By pitching a 3-1/2 L starter in a 6 gal. (final vol.) lager, I didn't just reduce lagtime, I eliminated it altogether.

Yes, but yeast growth in beer can have flavor consequences.

3.5 liters of starter wort in a 6 gallon (inclusive of starter) batch means roughly 15% of your volume is starter wort.  That seems undesirably high to me.
Yes, that's part of my point.  The online yeast calculators lead a newbie like me to make a huge starter without saying that they expect that you will let it work out, crash and decant.  And you don't need to do all of that if you make a smaller starter, shake the bejeebers out of it and pitch at or near high krausen.  Saves time, effort, money.

So far, the beer tastes really good (unlagered and uncarbed).
A 3.5 L starter...undesirable, probably...unnecessary, definitely!

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Re: Cold Crashing Starter
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2015, 05:38:45 PM »
Yes, but yeast growth in beer can have flavor consequences.

The maximum cell density for 19 liters of wort is 3.8 trillion cells; hence, the difference between 100B cells and 200B cells is insignificant.  In fact, the difference between 100B cells and 400B cells is insignificant unless one is dealing with the cell destroying effects of high osmotic pressure. 

What's more important when pitching a starter is the health/state of the cells.  Cells that are pitched at high krausen are still in the exponential stage, which means that have ergosterol and unsaturated fatty acid reserves that only need to be topped off. Cells that have reached quiescence have undo the cell wall thickening that occurs at the end of fermentation.  They also have to rebuild the ergosterol and unsaturated fatty acid reserves that were wasted producing replacement cells after the exponential phase was exited.

log(3,800 / 400) / log(2) = 4 replication periods (rounded up)
og(3,800 / 200) / log(2) = 5  replication periods (rounded up)
log(3,800 / 100) / log(2) = 6  replication periods (rounded up)

« Last Edit: March 22, 2015, 05:40:16 PM by S. cerevisiae »
Mark V.

Just say "no" to yeast rinsing
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=19850.msg252492#msg252492

A pale ale losing points for being too pale is like a vicar being defrocked for being too godly. It is no wonder that beer judges get such a bad rap.  - Graham Wheeler