Author Topic: US perspective on late hop additions sought by UK brewer  (Read 4701 times)

Offline zymurgeeza

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US perspective on late hop additions sought by UK brewer
« on: June 18, 2012, 12:49:54 PM »
Hi Guys, first time posting (be gentle  ;D).

Been having some fairly heated argument recently about treatment of flameout hops with other UK brewers, vis steeping them for an extended period in hot wort or just banging the chiller on and getting down to pitching temp as quickly as possible.

Would be great to get a handle on what is common on your side of the pond (obviously I'm talking about beers where lots of late hop character is desired...)

I have an idea of how it usually done in the US, but it may be based on nothing more than my vague notions rather than any fact. I also have my preferred method, but don't want to tilt the conversation one way or another just yet...

Thanks!
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Offline denny

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Re: US perspective on late hop additions sought by UK brewer
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2012, 01:00:50 PM »
I think that in a lot of commercial breweries it's common to see whirlpool additions, where the hops steep for a period of time in the 180-200F temp range.  You're starting to see more homebrewers doing that also.  I think the "add at flameout and bang on the chiller" method is still likely the most prevalent, though.  I also see a trend where dry hopping either replaces or is used in conjunction with late additions.  It's the opinion of a lot of people (myself included) that it's a more useful method.
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Offline mabrungard

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Re: US perspective on late hop additions sought by UK brewer
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2012, 01:03:15 PM »
It depends what your goals are.  There are plenty of brewers that allow extended whirlpool contact time for their late hops to improve extraction.  I know that Firestone Walker uses extended flameout contact time for their late hops. 

The primary concern I have with extended post-boil time is the potential to develop DMS in the finished beer.  But it seems that with adequate duration and vigor of boiling, the DMS pre-cursors are largely expelled and the extended time is not really a hazard.  I've been concentrating on an extended post-boil time and haven't experienced increased DMS in my opinion.
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Offline brushvalleybrewer

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Re: US perspective on late hop additions sought by UK brewer
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2012, 03:51:59 PM »
If you poke around the brewing network archives, you can probably hear Jamil talk about his Evil Twin recipe. My understanding is that when he was a homebrewer, he did the "bang-and-chill" method. When he went pro, the volume was large enough that the wort steeped for quite a while before he could get it through his chiller. He ended up having to play with the recipe to get the same affect. Point being that sometimes pros do what pros do because they have to. It seems like the same affect can be got either way, but there may be recipe changes involved.
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Offline DrewG

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Re: US perspective on late hop additions sought by UK brewer
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2012, 10:21:28 AM »
I've done both, no issues with DMS on an extended steep. I tend to think you will have some unaccounted for IBUS with a steeping approach vs flameout and chill.

I've done this beer a couple of times with the steep method. It's Kelsey McNairs, a beer he did with Stone Brewery and Ballast Point. It does not stay around long.

Quote
Here is the recipe for 7 gallons of wort with a mash efficiency of 82%:

OG: 1.042
8.75lb Domestic 2-row
0.5lb Crisp Crystal Malt 77L
0.5lb CaraPils
0.2lb Honey Malt
0.1lb CaraVienne Malt

Mash at 158F for 60 minutes

Boil for 90 minutes
Hops:
20g Warrior (38.2 IBU) at 60 min
7g CTZ (7.3 IBU) at 30 min
10g Amarillo (3.1 IBU) at 10 min
10g Simcoe (4.3 IBU) at 10 min
1oz each Simcoe, Amarillo, Chinook, Citra, CTZ at 0 min
1oz each Simcoe, Amarillo, Chinook, Citra, CTZ dry hop

I turn off the heat, immediately add the hops and then give the kettle a good whirlpool stir. The hot wort rests for about 20 minutes and is then chilled via heat exchanger.

Fermentation:
WLP001 or WY1056 at 67F until completely fermented
FG should be 1.010~1.011

Reduce temp to 50F to settle out yeast

Return to 67F and dry hop for 7 days.
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Offline zymurgeeza

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Re: US perspective on late hop additions sought by UK brewer
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2012, 04:55:20 PM »
Thanks for the replies guys.

Steeping hops at 80 degrees C (176 F) for 30-60 minutes after the boil seems very common among UK homebrewers, but when I have tried it, the results have been nowhere near as good as chucking a load of hops in at flameout (or element off in my case) and chilling as quickly as possible.

@denny This is surely a function of the enormous volumes pro's have to deal with, compared to say my 5 gallon set up. When making a hoppy beer I 'bang and chill' and frequently dry-hop also.

@mabrungard I'm not sure about the science, but I don't agree that they steep hops in the whirlpool for a long period to improve extraction. My guess (and it is a guess) is that the primary function of extended whirlpool time is to have clear beer to run off into FV. My reading up on this, along with the conversations I have been having leads me to think that there are two pertinent points when it comes to late hop additions: 1. Volatile aroma oils boil off very easily at temperatures below boiling. 2. More importantly though, these oils do not boil off if they are in solution. So I would guess that by whirlpooling the wort, the oils are more easily solubilised and stay bonded into the wort. When I tried the post boil 80 C steep, the wort developed a large oily slick on the surface; presumably this was where my volatile aroma went to evaporate, and as none if it was mixed back into to wort, I'm pretty sure none of it ended up in the finished beer.

@brushvalleybrewer Very interesting observation! I have tried to find this on the BN but couldn't. Is it on Brewstrong or the Jamil Show? It's interesting (to me) that a lot of UK homebrewers seem to be doing the extended steep 'because it's what the pro's do', and in fact are encouraged to do so by pro's on homebrew forums. I suspect it's completely unnecessary on a homebrew set up, and unless they're actually whirlpooling the hops or somehow improving the solubility of the oils by mixing them into the wort, lots of homebrewers are missing out on the aroma they could/should be getting.

@DrewG Extra IBU's are certainly a consideration with hop steeps, but fairly minor in the grand scheme. Your recipe looks good (I may give it  go). 20 minutes is a fairly short steep time compared to what I have heard about in the UK, and I have no doubt that it gives good results. Finding out at what point you start getting diminishing returns is probably what is most important in the debate.
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Offline tubercle

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Re: US perspective on late hop additions sought by UK brewer
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2012, 05:33:13 PM »
Is dry hopping, ie..adding hops after the ferment, prevelent in the UK? a lot of hop character doing this.

I think its cool of your use of "vis" (over here its viz = videlicet; Latin for "namely"). I use it sometimes at work to freak out my supervisor. For example: I ask for the afternoon off so I can "contact the Home Planet before the predicted interruptions occur; viz. solar flares". Never fails...
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Offline zymurgeeza

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Re: US perspective on late hop additions sought by UK brewer
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2012, 02:07:29 AM »
Is dry hopping, ie..adding hops after the ferment, prevelent in the UK? a lot of hop character doing this.
Depends on the beer style   ;)

A lot of people over here don't brew to style though... Which might not necessarily  be a bad thing, but IME means too many mediocre pale ales that are neither truly American nor British in style.

And yep, you guys always use a 'z' when it sounds like one; we're not so utilitarian, which I enjoy   ;D
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Offline nateo

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Re: US perspective on late hop additions sought by UK brewer
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2012, 04:06:50 AM »
If I'm making something like an APA I'll add all of my hops with -20min or less. It usually takes a couple ounces to get the bittering level I want. I also stagger my flameout additions, like maybe half at flameout, then 1/4 when the wort chills down to 180*, then another 1/4 at 140* or so. That procedure works well with my system, but like BVB says some techniques may work better on different systems.
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Offline erockrph

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Re: US perspective on late hop additions sought by UK brewer
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2012, 06:06:16 AM »
I also stagger my flameout additions, like maybe half at flameout, then 1/4 when the wort chills down to 180*, then another 1/4 at 140* or so. That procedure works well with my system, but like BVB says some techniques may work better on different systems.

I was thinking of trying this with my next IPA - I'm glad to hear that someone else has gotten good results with this procedure. I used a 60-minute hot steep on my last IPA with a big flameout addition, but I still thought something was missing, particularly in the flavor department. I figured I was blowing off a lot of hop oils with the extended hot steep. Next time I'm going to move my 60 minute addition to FWH, and then hop burst during chilling. I use a cold water/ice bath so my chilling is slow enough where I should still get decent oil extraction.
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Offline jeffy

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Re: US perspective on late hop additions sought by UK brewer
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2012, 06:12:04 AM »
I also stagger my flameout additions, like maybe half at flameout, then 1/4 when the wort chills down to 180*, then another 1/4 at 140* or so. That procedure works well with my system, but like BVB says some techniques may work better on different systems.

I was thinking of trying this with my next IPA - I'm glad to hear that someone else has gotten good results with this procedure. I used a 60-minute hot steep on my last IPA with a big flameout addition, but I still thought something was missing, particularly in the flavor department. I figured I was blowing off a lot of hop oils with the extended hot steep. Next time I'm going to move my 60 minute addition to FWH, and then hop burst during chilling. I use a cold water/ice bath so my chilling is slow enough where I should still get decent oil extraction.

On the last few batches of hoppy beers I have stopped chilling at 100F and then whirlpooled some hops in for a half hour before chilling the rest of the way.  I figured this would help from boiling off the volatile hop oils, but I really haven't noticed much difference in hop aroma.  Maybe I'm not using enough.
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Offline nateo

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Re: US perspective on late hop additions sought by UK brewer
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2012, 06:18:24 AM »
I'm not an expert on hoppy beers, but the method I described has given me better hop presence than those beers where I just used bittering/aroma-flavor/dry hop additions. I'm not sure if the extended whirlpool makes all that much of a difference, but end-loading all the hops after the -20min mark makes a noticeable difference. You'd need to use a ton of hops to get a high-IBU beer that way, but you'd get a ton of flavor and aroma that way too.
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Offline erockrph

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Re: US perspective on late hop additions sought by UK brewer
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2012, 06:21:51 AM »
I also stagger my flameout additions, like maybe half at flameout, then 1/4 when the wort chills down to 180*, then another 1/4 at 140* or so. That procedure works well with my system, but like BVB says some techniques may work better on different systems.

I was thinking of trying this with my next IPA - I'm glad to hear that someone else has gotten good results with this procedure. I used a 60-minute hot steep on my last IPA with a big flameout addition, but I still thought something was missing, particularly in the flavor department. I figured I was blowing off a lot of hop oils with the extended hot steep. Next time I'm going to move my 60 minute addition to FWH, and then hop burst during chilling. I use a cold water/ice bath so my chilling is slow enough where I should still get decent oil extraction.

On the last few batches of hoppy beers I have stopped chilling at 100F and then whirlpooled some hops in for a half hour before chilling the rest of the way.  I figured this would help from boiling off the volatile hop oils, but I really haven't noticed much difference in hop aroma.  Maybe I'm not using enough.

Yeah, I'm thinking there has to be some sort of correlation between temperature and extraction of hop oils. I mean we dry hop for days, not minutes, right? At some point I'm sure it gets too cold to effectively dissolve hop oils in a short period of time.

That's why I'm thinking of doing several adds on the way down. I'm thinking that there's got to be a temp for each of the hop oils where the ratio of the rate of dissolution to evaporation is maxed out. I'm hoping that by doing several adds on the way down you can hit that temp for several of the hop oils before it all flashes off.
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: US perspective on late hop additions sought by UK brewer
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2012, 06:27:02 AM »
Listen to Matt Bryndilson talk about the whirlpool hopping on this one. The Union Jack recipe he gives makes a fine beer, I have made that one twice. If you listen you will find he gives a big addition at flameout with a whirlpool. Then the beer is dry hopped. Flavor is developed from the whirlpool, aroma from dry hops.

I will make a beer tomorrow at the local brewpub. It is a Cream Ale that I make that is an homage to Pelican Pubs Kiwanda Cream Ale. All of the hops are added at flameout and whirlpooled. The beer has the right amount of bitterness, good hop flavor, and decent aroma.

As far as the oils go, 2 have flash temps over 80F but less than 100F. One is 112F, one is 200F. Look up the James Altweis talk at the 2010 NHC, the numbers are in there.
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Offline tomsawyer

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Re: US perspective on late hop additions sought by UK brewer
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2012, 12:19:28 PM »
I would think the ethanol in beer would probably enhance the dissolution of oils into solution.  You might get some help with elevated temp but at the expense of flashing off some of the more volatile stuff.
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