Author Topic: That German lager flavor  (Read 63323 times)

Offline davidgzach

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #45 on: June 25, 2012, 05:00:30 AM »
So, is any of this pretty much unachievable with Wyeast 1007? Or can one still get a pretty convincing German "lager" with 1007?  Probably not, right?

Nope, can't make a lager with ale yeast. 
Dave Zach

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #46 on: June 25, 2012, 05:30:19 AM »
1007 is a fairly clean ale yeast.  I've fermented it as low as 55F to make clean, lager-like beers.  I'm not sure if I would say these beers were "convincing" as "lagers", but I definitely think they were close.  O'fest with 1007 is particularly close.
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Offline beersk

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #47 on: June 25, 2012, 06:00:01 AM »
1007 is a fairly clean ale yeast.  I've fermented it as low as 55F to make clean, lager-like beers.  I'm not sure if I would say these beers were "convincing" as "lagers", but I definitely think they were close.  O'fest with 1007 is particularly close.
That's good to know, I just brewed a decocted festbier yesterday.  Mashed 20 minutes at 146F, decocted a fairly thin mash (because I saw a video where Kai Troester was recommending this to avoid scorching...), boiled for 15 minutes, and brought it back up to about 157F, had to add a little boiling water. Then drew off about 5 qts and boiled for 10 minutes, added back to get to 169F or so.  Ended up getting like 83% efficiency, which is amazing for me. The grain bill was half vienna half munich, and a little caramunich. I did end up with sort of a stuck runoff...wondering what the eff was up with that...
I took some of the 2nd runnings, about half a liter, boiled for 10 minutes, cooled and add my harvest 1007 to it.  It foamed up pretty good in almost no time.  Then pitched it a few hours later to 55F wort.  Didn't take off as quick as I'd thought though.  I think I may try some beers with a Bavarian lager yeast soon.  But I'm just getting into doing lagers seriously so I'm just getting familiar with this stuff. 

Thanks a lot guys! Great thread here. 
« Last Edit: June 25, 2012, 06:39:38 AM by beersk »
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #48 on: June 25, 2012, 09:19:34 AM »
I was out at the NHC, and had limited internet access, and was having too much fun. Time to put my views on here.

What is the most important part? All of it. Think like a German brewer would. Pay attention to the details in the entire process, be as exacting as you can. Don't cut corners. Read through what Kai has to say on braukaiser.com as that is a wonderful resource for making German beers. Big thanks to Kai for doing that.

It also helps to have German brewed beers as fresh as possible for comparisons. This is hard sometimes. Often the beers here in the US have honey in the aroma, and that is a sign of staling (2,3 pentanedione). The bitterness starts to have a roughness to it when the beers get old. The same beer in Germany has no honey aroma and a smooth bitterness. If you have a chance to go to Germany, do it!

Yeast. I have been using the 34/70 strain (WLP-830, WY-2124) for my dry German beers and the WLP-833 for malty German beers. I have heard good things about the WY-2352 yeast, and had a Helles made with that at the NHC. It is said to be the Augusteiner yeast, so I need to try that one.

Water. I follow Kai's water profiles.

Malt. German malt. Durst Pils can help make a bone dry pils. Weyermann is good for all of their malts. I have only used a little Best Malz. Where can I find more types other than Pils?

Hops. One thing you need to know is that "Hallertau" from the LHBS can be several varities grown in the Hallertau. I seek out Hallertau Mittelfrueh on the label to get the one I want. Hallertau Tradition is OK. Magnum works for bittering. Tettnager is a favorite, but was hard to find in cones last year. I have used Saaz in German Pils with good results. An interesting fact from the Hop talk by Stan Heironimous was Tattnanger, Spalt, and Saaz are genetically the same, but the growing region gives different results. Herkules is on I have been looking at for future brews, and Stan said it is going to become very popular.

Process: Hochkurz, chill to 45F, pitch a bunch of yeast, O2, ferment cool, I do a D-rest to clean up and blow of SO2, lager for a long time as cold as you can.











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Online morticaixavier

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #49 on: June 25, 2012, 09:32:29 AM »
hopfen,

you mention lots of yeast. This seems to be important across the board with lager. I have also heard that if you get enough healthy yeast a D-rest is not really needed. Is this your experience? I ask because when I do a lager I will be getting lots of yeast from the local brewery. If I pitch a quart of 1 day - 1 week old yeast slurry do I need to do a D-rest?
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #50 on: June 25, 2012, 09:40:41 AM »
hopfen,

you mention lots of yeast. This seems to be important across the board with lager. I have also heard that if you get enough healthy yeast a D-rest is not really needed. Is this your experience? I ask because when I do a lager I will be getting lots of yeast from the local brewery. If I pitch a quart of 1 day - 1 week old yeast slurry do I need to do a D-rest?

One reason to do the D-rest is if you can taste diacetyl. A good test is to warm a sample up to room temp and taste. The other reason is to speed the fermentation up for a shorter time length, and the increased activity will blow off more SO2.

Yes pitching a lot of healthy yeast at a temp cooler than your fermentation will reduce Diacetyl production.
Jeff Rankert
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Offline davidgzach

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #51 on: June 25, 2012, 09:41:35 AM »
hopfen,

you mention lots of yeast. This seems to be important across the board with lager. I have also heard that if you get enough healthy yeast a D-rest is not really needed. Is this your experience? I ask because when I do a lager I will be getting lots of yeast from the local brewery. If I pitch a quart of 1 day - 1 week old yeast slurry do I need to do a D-rest?

Proper pitching rates are essential.  I have performed D-Rests in the past but have gotten away from them with pitching correctly.  How many gallons of wort are you pitching a quart of slurry in to? 

Dave
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Offline jmcamerlengo

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #52 on: June 25, 2012, 09:46:53 AM »
Just wanted to that handling of yeast is just as important as the strain itself. Im a big fan of WLP833 and it is said to be the ayinger strain. However that doesn't mean my beers taste like Ayinger's or anyone else who uses that strain. The way the brewery has handled it and repitched it has A HUGE effect that probably can't be duplicated on a homebrew scale.
Jason
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Offline redzim

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #53 on: June 25, 2012, 10:47:20 AM »
I was out at the NHC, and had limited internet access, and was having too much fun. Time to put my views on here.

One day I will get to one of those conferences..... sounds like everyone has a lot of fun...

Quote

Process: Hochkurz, chill to 45F, pitch a bunch of yeast, O2, ferment cool, I do a D-rest to clean up and blow of SO2, lager for a long time as cold as you can.

Hochkurz decoction, or infusion? Kai's site gives details for both. I've done a Hochkurz decoction for a Boh Pils. Never tried the infusion version but according to Kai it is common and popular in Germany these days.

-red

Online morticaixavier

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #54 on: June 25, 2012, 11:27:23 AM »
hopfen,

you mention lots of yeast. This seems to be important across the board with lager. I have also heard that if you get enough healthy yeast a D-rest is not really needed. Is this your experience? I ask because when I do a lager I will be getting lots of yeast from the local brewery. If I pitch a quart of 1 day - 1 week old yeast slurry do I need to do a D-rest?

Proper pitching rates are essential.  I have performed D-Rests in the past but have gotten away from them with pitching correctly.  How many gallons of wort are you pitching a quart of slurry in to? 

Dave

it would probably be a 5 gallon batch to start, sometimes I do 8 gallon and once in a great while a 10 gallon. is 1 quart into 5 gallons overkill?
"Creativity is the residue of wasted time" - A. Einstein

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Offline davidgzach

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #55 on: June 25, 2012, 11:34:29 AM »
morticaixavier,

I'm assuming a standard lager of around 1.050.  With week old slurry, that would be about 82% viability according to Mr. Malty.  Using the standard yeast concentration and % of non-yeast of 15%, you would need 236 ml of slurry or just about 8oz. 

Did a quick calc as I have to run and get my daughter from camp, so if anyone can check my work, that would be great.

Dave
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Offline beersk

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #56 on: June 25, 2012, 11:58:09 AM »
morticaixavier,

I'm assuming a standard lager of around 1.050.  With week old slurry, that would be about 82% viability according to Mr. Malty.  Using the standard yeast concentration and % of non-yeast of 15%, you would need 236 ml of slurry or just about 8oz. 

Did a quick calc as I have to run and get my daughter from camp, so if anyone can check my work, that would be great.

Dave
That's probably not far off if it isn't correct.  I'm always surprised at how little proper pitching amounts are. I always pitch like 300ml of thick slurry no matter what the OG of the wort is.

But, I've got a question about pitching in relation to aeration.  I don't have an aeration stone, only use a mix stir.  Would not having as much dissolved oxygen be canceled out if I pitch more than the recommended amount of yeast? I'm guessing not, but just wondering. And I wonder if the taste differences would be negligible, but I guess I don't know that either.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2012, 12:01:22 PM by beersk »
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Offline kylekohlmorgen

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #57 on: June 25, 2012, 12:40:50 PM »
hopfen,

you mention lots of yeast. This seems to be important across the board with lager. I have also heard that if you get enough healthy yeast a D-rest is not really needed. Is this your experience? I ask because when I do a lager I will be getting lots of yeast from the local brewery. If I pitch a quart of 1 day - 1 week old yeast slurry do I need to do a D-rest?

One reason to do the D-rest is if you can taste diacetyl. A good test is to warm a sample up to room temp and taste. The other reason is to speed the fermentation up for a shorter time length, and the increased activity will blow off more SO2.

Yes pitching a lot of healthy yeast at a temp cooler than your fermentation will reduce Diacetyl production.

I try to give a "diacetyl rest" (a ramp in temp of 2-3F after I've reached about 80% of the expected FG) to every beer, ale or lager, that's I'm not fermenting at the top end of the temp range.

It can also help clear up acetylaldehyde.

In dry-hopped beers, I'll start this rest and add the dry hops at the same time.
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #58 on: June 25, 2012, 08:20:04 PM »
I was out at the NHC, and had limited internet access, and was having too much fun. Time to put my views on here.

One day I will get to one of those conferences..... sounds like everyone has a lot of fun...

Quote

Process: Hochkurz, chill to 45F, pitch a bunch of yeast, O2, ferment cool, I do a D-rest to clean up and blow of SO2, lager for a long time as cold as you can.

Hochkurz decoction, or infusion? Kai's site gives details for both. I've done a Hochkurz decoction for a Boh Pils. Never tried the infusion version but according to Kai it is common and popular in Germany these days.

-red
Red - I do the decoction.
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Offline mabrungard

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #59 on: June 25, 2012, 09:50:43 PM »
Water can't make the malty flavor, it can only deminish it. I anxiously await guidance on what brings the wonderful pils malt flavors I've tasted in various Continental lagers.
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