Author Topic: That German lager flavor  (Read 121722 times)

Offline davidgzach

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #90 on: June 27, 2012, 11:45:07 am »
Some of us have a lo sensitivity to diacetyl. I know one guy who is pretty much blind to it.

Wow, that's interesting/surprising.
Dave Zach

Offline morticaixavier

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #91 on: June 27, 2012, 11:48:14 am »
So this talk about proper pitching rates and diacetyl raises another question in my mind. I have read that some folks recommend NOT aerating the wort and just pitching a full working population of yeast. It seems with lagers you must be pretty close to that full working population with no need for a growth phase. is diacetyl something that is produced during the growth phase and thus, if you pitch a really huge amount of yeast would not be a problem?
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Offline davidgzach

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #92 on: June 27, 2012, 11:50:33 am »
So this talk about proper pitching rates and diacetyl raises another question in my mind. I have read that some folks recommend NOT aerating the wort and just pitching a full working population of yeast. It seems with lagers you must be pretty close to that full working population with no need for a growth phase. is diacetyl something that is produced during the growth phase and thus, if you pitch a really huge amount of yeast would not be a problem?

I have pitched on top of a prior 2124 cake only, but a few times.  Each time it took off almost immediately and there were zero signs of diacetyl. 

Dave
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Offline beersk

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #93 on: June 27, 2012, 12:09:48 pm »
So this talk about proper pitching rates and diacetyl raises another question in my mind. I have read that some folks recommend NOT aerating the wort and just pitching a full working population of yeast. It seems with lagers you must be pretty close to that full working population with no need for a growth phase. is diacetyl something that is produced during the growth phase and thus, if you pitch a really huge amount of yeast would not be a problem?

I have pitched on top of a prior 2124 cake only, but a few times.  Each time it took off almost immediately and there were zero signs of diacetyl. 

Dave
Without aerating the wort? I use a mix stir and I am wondering if I would be able to make up for the lack of aeration (as compared to pure O2) with pitching extra yeast.
Jesse

Offline davidgzach

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #94 on: June 27, 2012, 12:13:36 pm »
No, I missed that part.  I always aerate very well.

Dave
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Offline jmcamerlengo

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #95 on: June 27, 2012, 12:14:59 pm »
Wouldn't excessive wort aeration cause more esters? Pitching more is going to just the opposite and create less and a more clean beer.

As far as D-rests go, I have found that if you start cold and rise to ferm temp 44-48 F area, that a D-rest is pretty much never necessary.
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Offline davidgzach

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #96 on: June 27, 2012, 12:19:58 pm »
Wouldn't excessive wort aeration cause more esters?

Jason,

Not sure what you mean here.  I just amply aerate the wort with a whisk before pitching the yeast, whether on top of the cake or directly.  When you say excessive, do you mean using pure O2 and putting in too much?

Dave
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Offline davidgzach

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #97 on: June 27, 2012, 12:29:43 pm »
Without aerating the wort? I use a mix stir and I am wondering if I would be able to make up for the lack of aeration (as compared to pure O2) with pitching extra yeast.
[/quote]

Just looked back at this.  Got off track a bit.  If you aerate properly with a mix stir, you are fine.  Pitching more yeast will not fix poor aeration.
Dave Zach

Offline jmcamerlengo

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #98 on: June 27, 2012, 12:32:19 pm »
Wouldn't excessive wort aeration cause more esters?

Jason,

Not sure what you mean here.  I just amply aerate the wort with a whisk before pitching the yeast, whether on top of the cake or directly.  When you say excessive, do you mean using pure O2 and putting in too much?

Dave

Yes thats what I mean!
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Offline beersk

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #99 on: June 27, 2012, 12:33:35 pm »
Quote from: beersk
Without aerating the wort? I use a mix stir and I am wondering if I would be able to make up for the lack of aeration (as compared to pure O2) with pitching extra yeast.

Just looked back at this.  Got off track a bit.  If you aerate properly with a mix stir, you are fine.  Pitching more yeast will not fix poor aeration.
I have been under the impression that a mix stir will not aerate the wort enough for lagers.  2 or 3 minutes with a mix stir is all I usually do.
Jesse

Offline davidgzach

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #100 on: June 27, 2012, 12:34:48 pm »
Wouldn't excessive wort aeration cause more esters?

Jason,

Not sure what you mean here.  I just amply aerate the wort with a whisk before pitching the yeast, whether on top of the cake or directly.  When you say excessive, do you mean using pure O2 and putting in too much?

Dave

Yes thats what I mean!

Yep, that makes sense.  Wasn't sure if I was reading it properly......
Dave Zach

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #101 on: June 27, 2012, 12:39:20 pm »
Some of us have a lo sensitivity to diacetyl. I know one guy who is pretty much blind to it.

Wow, that's interesting/surprising.
About 20% of the population is blind to diacetyl.

I know one guy who is hypersensitive to diacetyl, but is blind to DMS. This is just like color blindness in its own way.

We all have strengths and weekness in our palate. That is why you want more than one judge, Bigger breweries know who can taste what and make sure there is a mix of sensitivities on the tasting panels they do daily.
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Offline denny

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #102 on: June 27, 2012, 12:49:48 pm »
Just looked back at this.  Got off track a bit.  If you aerate properly with a mix stir, you are fine.  Pitching more yeast will not fix poor aeration.

Actually....pitching more yeast is an alternative to aeration.  The purpose of aeration is to provide O2 for the yeast to synthesize sterols, whiuch the yeast use to build cells walls when the replicate.  If you pitch enough yeast, there is little to no need for tham to do that.
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Offline davidgzach

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #103 on: June 27, 2012, 01:00:33 pm »
I remember reading that to have a healthy fermentation you need the yeast to reproduce at least a certain amount. Also remember a thread where Tom explained this.  I'll try to find it.
Dave Zach

Offline Pawtucket Patriot

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #104 on: June 27, 2012, 01:45:33 pm »
Quote from: beersk
Without aerating the wort? I use a mix stir and I am wondering if I would be able to make up for the lack of aeration (as compared to pure O2) with pitching extra yeast.

Just looked back at this.  Got off track a bit.  If you aerate properly with a mix stir, you are fine.  Pitching more yeast will not fix poor aeration.
I have been under the impression that a mix stir will not aerate the wort enough for lagers.  2 or 3 minutes with a mix stir is all I usually do.

I've been using a mix-stir to aerate my lagers for almost two years without issue.  I have excellent lager fermentations that attenuate completely. 
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