Author Topic: That German lager flavor  (Read 63361 times)

Online Kaiser

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #225 on: August 14, 2012, 07:33:40 PM »
... I know Jamil is not sold on it tho.

Some brewers swear by it, others don't like it. I think its worth a few batches for brewers to see themselves. Especially when you are looking for something new to try. The science behind why the hop flavor/aroma stays in the beer may not be as simple as for late hop additions but who cares if it works.

Quote
I know that regardless of traditional or FWH,when I use a low alpha hop to get a lot of IBU's, then I get a lot of vegetal material (polyphenols) dissolved in the beer and it comes out grassy and astringent.  To me, that makes the bitterness harsh.

You may want to give hop extract (NB sells it as the hop shot, but you can also buy 150g cans for $15 through bulk buys) a try for basic bittering additions. There is no vegetal matter that can lead to the flavors you described above.

The last Pilsners I made used 30g Saazer as FWH and 2 g hop extract (54% AA) for bittering. This is for 25 l preboil. I feel that the utilization for hop extract is a bit less than for hop pellets and you have to add a bit more.

Kai

Offline erockrph

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #226 on: August 14, 2012, 07:40:17 PM »
I know that regardless of traditional or FWH,when I use a low alpha hop to get a lot of IBU's, then I get a lot of vegetal material (polyphenols) dissolved in the beer and it comes out grassy and astringent.  To me, that makes the bitterness harsh.

And for that reason I'd love to see varietal Hop Shots, especially for some of the lower AA hops. My freezer would look like a heroin junkie's stash if they made Czech Saaz and EKG Hop Shots.
Eric B.

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Offline Lenk

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #227 on: August 14, 2012, 08:05:32 PM »
So...how much yeast should you pitch for a 5 gal batch? I've been doing a one smack pack yeast starter a day or two before my brew day. Is this short for a G-Lager? Should I start sooner, then add more DME @ 1.04 one more time or even two times? I just started doing yeast starters.
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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #228 on: August 14, 2012, 08:41:47 PM »
I pitch about 90 - 100g freshly propagated yeast sediment into a 12 Plato 5 gal batch. That is about 400 Billion cells and I need about 2.5 l wort at 10 Plato to grow that much on a stirplate.

Kai

Offline AmandaK

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #229 on: August 15, 2012, 05:30:05 AM »
Sure.  I have tried with Briess, Munton Weyerman and one from my homebrew shop labeled Belgian Pils (don't know the brand).  Munton calls their pils lager malt, but it is the traditional luv range of pils malt.  The Weyerman had the richest malt character with some sweetness.  The Belgian was fairly clean with a distinctive pils sweetness.  The Muntons had the intense pils sweetness that was grape-like.  Briess was somewhat sweet, but almost just neutral malt in character.

Good information! I was leaning towards trying Weyermann's Floor Malted Bohemian Pilsner malt for an upcoming Helles or German Pils, so I may do just that.
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Online Kaiser

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #230 on: August 15, 2012, 05:54:47 AM »
My freezer would look like a heroin junkie's stash if they made Czech Saaz and EKG Hop Shots.

You mean like this:



I'm not sure of there is a large selection of varietal hop extract available. It's mostly used for substituting bittering hops and brewers still add pellets for aroma/flavor. Some vegative matter is beneficial for good hop break.

Kai

Offline erockrph

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #231 on: August 15, 2012, 08:06:11 AM »
I'm not sure of there is a large selection of varietal hop extract available. It's mostly used for substituting bittering hops and brewers still add pellets for aroma/flavor. Some vegative matter is beneficial for good hop break.

I've got an all-Hop Shot APA in the fermenter as we speak, so I'll reserve judgement until I taste it. But, of all the batches I brewed that day, the Hop Shot one smelled the best. I did get a bunch of green scum on top of the boil, so I think at least a little of the vegetative "stuff" comes through in the extract. The Hop Shot I used looks like it was quite a bit darker than what you have.

Eric B.

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Offline denny

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #232 on: August 15, 2012, 08:49:42 AM »
Back to FWH.

I have to say that earlier hops additions gives me harsher and lingering bitterness.
Not sure why FWH would not do the same.

This is my experience.
Kind of learned it hard way with 350 gallons of beer.

In George Fix's book, principles of brewing science, he sites the blind taste tests where FWH was show to have a cleaner, less harsh bitter taste, despite having higher measured IBU's.  I think Gordon goes into this in his book too, and he is a big believer in FWH.  I only tried it once with an APA.  I took a medal at a fairly large competition (300+ entries), and my scoresheets described the beer as malty and dry with a bright hop flavor and no harsh bitterness.  I am fairly convinced that FWH does produce different flavors than 60 minute additions.  I know Jamil is not sold on it tho. 

I know that regardless of traditional or FWH,when I use a low alpha hop to get a lot of IBU's, then I get a lot of vegetal material (polyphenols) dissolved in the beer and it comes out grassy and astringent.  To me, that makes the bitterness harsh.

You might be interested in the results of a FWH experiment I did years back.  I split a batch of wort and one half got an oz. of Cascade as FWH and the other got an oz. of Cascade as a 60 min. addition.  The beers were analyzed for IBU and there was a blind triangle tasting by experienced homebrewers, BJCP judges, and commercial brewers.  The results are at http://www.ahaconference.org/wp-content/uploads/presentations/2008/DennyConn.pdf starting on pg. 29.
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Offline denny

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #233 on: August 15, 2012, 08:52:26 AM »
Sure.  I have tried with Briess, Munton Weyerman and one from my homebrew shop labeled Belgian Pils (don't know the brand).  Munton calls their pils lager malt, but it is the traditional luv range of pils malt.  The Weyerman had the richest malt character with some sweetness.  The Belgian was fairly clean with a distinctive pils sweetness.  The Muntons had the intense pils sweetness that was grape-like.  Briess was somewhat sweet, but almost just neutral malt in character.

Good information! I was leaning towards trying Weyermann's Floor Malted Bohemian Pilsner malt for an upcoming Helles or German Pils, so I may do just that.

I would also recommend you look into Durst and Best malts.  I've tried maybe 6-7 different pils malts, including most of the ones listed above.  Durst was my go to for years, then I discovered Best.  I've used it exclusively for pils malt and continental Munich ever since.
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Offline AmandaK

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #234 on: August 16, 2012, 11:18:14 AM »
I would also recommend you look into Durst and Best malts.  I've tried maybe 6-7 different pils malts, including most of the ones listed above.  Durst was my go to for years, then I discovered Best.  I've used it exclusively for pils malt and continental Munich ever since.

Hmmm... more food for thought. I knew I liked this place!  :D

Problem is, I'm living in small town southern Illinois right now, and have to mail order just about everything. Should I assume you get Best Malz Pils locally? I'm not finding a good source online.  :-\
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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #235 on: August 16, 2012, 02:16:22 PM »
I like Weyermann malts, but can't get them through our club bulk buys. I've never done a direct side by side to compare Weyermann and Best pils, though.

Weyermann Munich I and II don't seem to have good substitutions made by other maltsters.

Kai

Offline denny

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #236 on: August 17, 2012, 10:05:44 AM »

Hmmm... more food for thought. I knew I liked this place!  :D

Problem is, I'm living in small town southern Illinois right now, and have to mail order just about everything. Should I assume you get Best Malz Pils locally? I'm not finding a good source online.  :-\

Yeah, our club does a group buy through a local brewery.
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Offline mmitchem

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #237 on: August 17, 2012, 10:23:40 AM »
Is there a malt that anyone has used that is undermodified for use in decoction mashing? 
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Offline nateo

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #238 on: August 17, 2012, 11:10:01 AM »
Is there a malt that anyone has used that is undermodified for use in decoction mashing?

I tried to find some, but the least-modified I found had a Kolbach of around 37, which is "overmodified" for traditional lager brewing, according to Noonan.
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Offline Thirsty_Monk

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #239 on: August 19, 2012, 07:18:38 PM »
Thirsty,

with what type of hops did you make this experience?
Sorry for late response.
I use Magnum and Saaz.

It is normally 27 IBUs of Magnum and 4 IBUs of Saaz at 60 min.

The sharp and lingering bitterness was from
9.3 IBUs Saaz at 75 min and
21 IBUs Magnum at 60 min.

I was trying to get to more "traditional" hops.
Reducing Magnum and increasing Saaz.
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