Author Topic: That German lager flavor  (Read 121668 times)

dfhar

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #330 on: February 14, 2015, 09:06:05 am »
I started doing the long rest at 160 after I read this on Kai's page on decoction mashing.

From:
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Decoction_Mashing

Quote
Narziss [Narziss, 2005] and Fix [Fix, 1999] suggest, that a rest at 158 - 162 *F (70 - 72 *C) benefits head retention and body of the beer though glycoproteides that are extracted from the malt but not degraded by enzymatic activity. Because of that Narziss suggests holding this rest up to 60 min.

I've been meaning to try the textbook Schmitz process. I have an inkling keeping both alpha and beta active for the final rest could potentially result in a lower limit of attenuation and a drier beer, depending on the final rest temperature. With 1.050 wort made from mostly pils and a little munich/vienna, my fast ferment tests usually go down to 1.011 or 1.012ish, which I really like for Helles or Marzen beers. I'd like to try and get that down to 1.009 for a Kolsch or German Pilsner.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2015, 09:14:21 am by dfhar »

Offline wobdee

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #331 on: February 14, 2015, 09:31:19 am »
I started doing the long rest at 160 after I read this on Kai's page on decoction mashing.

From:
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Decoction_Mashing

Quote
Narziss [Narziss, 2005] and Fix [Fix, 1999] suggest, that a rest at 158 - 162 *F (70 - 72 *C) benefits head retention and body of the beer though glycoproteides that are extracted from the malt but not degraded by enzymatic activity. Because of that Narziss suggests holding this rest up to 60 min.

I've been meaning to try the textbook Schmitz process. I have an inkling keeping both alpha and beta active for the final rest could potentially result in a lower limit of attenuation and a drier beer, depending on the final rest temperature. With 1.050 wort made from mostly pils and a little munich/vienna, my fast ferment tests usually go down to 1.011 or 1.012ish, which I really like for Helles or Marzen beers. I'd like to try and get that down to 1.009 for a Kolsch or German Pilsner.
Ah, that's good to know. I'm brewing tomorrow, 50/50 pils/munich lager. I think I'll change things up a bit and follow your mash schedule. Thanks for posting.

My Pils usually end up 1.012-1.015 with a straight Schmitz mash. I think I'm going to have to drop my first rest down a couple degrees if I'm looking to get a drier beer.

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #332 on: February 14, 2015, 09:35:45 am »
I started doing the long rest at 160 after I read this on Kai's page on decoction mashing.

From:
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Decoction_Mashing

Quote
Narziss [Narziss, 2005] and Fix [Fix, 1999] suggest, that a rest at 158 - 162 *F (70 - 72 *C) benefits head retention and body of the beer though glycoproteides that are extracted from the malt but not degraded by enzymatic activity. Because of that Narziss suggests holding this rest up to 60 min.

I've been meaning to try the textbook Schmitz process. I have an inkling keeping both alpha and beta active for the final rest could potentially result in a lower limit of attenuation and a drier beer, depending on the final rest temperature. With 1.050 wort made from mostly pils and a little munich/vienna, my fast ferment tests usually go down to 1.011 or 1.012ish, which I really like for Helles or Marzen beers. I'd like to try and get that down to 1.009 for a Kolsch or German Pilsner.

Yeah, a 45-60 min rest at 158-160F gives excellent head retention.
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Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #333 on: February 14, 2015, 10:07:10 am »
With 10 gallon batches, I would think that a full grist decoction would be tough to pull off in a reasonable time frame.  Maybe I'll do a 5 gallon batch using that suggested approach mentioned above.  The other thought I have is using a second vessel in which the liquor could be heated to 160 or so and mash out with the decocted grist....
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Offline wobdee

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #334 on: February 14, 2015, 10:08:39 am »
I started doing the long rest at 160 after I read this on Kai's page on decoction mashing.

From:
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Decoction_Mashing

Quote
Narziss [Narziss, 2005] and Fix [Fix, 1999] suggest, that a rest at 158 - 162 *F (70 - 72 *C) benefits head retention and body of the beer though glycoproteides that are extracted from the malt but not degraded by enzymatic activity. Because of that Narziss suggests holding this rest up to 60 min.

I've been meaning to try the textbook Schmitz process. I have an inkling keeping both alpha and beta active for the final rest could potentially result in a lower limit of attenuation and a drier beer, depending on the final rest temperature. With 1.050 wort made from mostly pils and a little munich/vienna, my fast ferment tests usually go down to 1.011 or 1.012ish, which I really like for Helles or Marzen beers. I'd like to try and get that down to 1.009 for a Kolsch or German Pilsner.

Yeah, a 45-60 min rest at 158-160F gives excellent head retention.

That's one thing my beers have been lacking, I'm going to give a 160 degree 60 min rest a try. Thanks

rabeb25

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #335 on: February 15, 2015, 07:01:06 pm »
Sounds pretty close to the Hokurtz method I use. I don't decoct, but all my lagers get it. I do 145 for 40 min, and 158 for 30. Great fermentability but still has great body, and head retention.

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #336 on: February 16, 2015, 04:25:39 pm »
I've done the same. Wish I could say I could perceive a difference in finished product, but can't say I do.


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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #337 on: February 16, 2015, 04:27:31 pm »
I've done the same. Wish I could say I could perceive a difference in finished product, but can't say I do.


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+1.  I don't either.
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That German lager flavor
« Reply #338 on: February 16, 2015, 04:35:44 pm »
Yeah it's really about the maillard reactions. I've achieved better results with some melanoidin and higher mash temps with longer rests.


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« Last Edit: February 16, 2015, 04:37:57 pm by Wort-H.O.G. »
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
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https://www.facebook.com/pages/Harveys-Brewhaus/405092862905115

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Science_of_Mashing

Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
Next:
Ger Pils
O'Fest

Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #339 on: February 17, 2015, 05:03:44 am »
Sounds pretty close to the Hokurtz method I use. I don't decoct, but all my lagers get it. I do 145 for 40 min, and 158 for 30. Great fermentability but still has great body, and head retention.

if you interested in an experiment, throw in 6-8 oz of melanoidin, mash in at 156F-158F and let it rest for 75-90 minutes.
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
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Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
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Offline coolman26

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #340 on: February 17, 2015, 07:18:57 am »
if you interested in an experiment, throw in 6-8 oz of melanoidin, mash in at 156F-158F and let it rest for 75-90 minutes.
[/quote]
So you also can't taste a difference in decoctions?  I have read this from several people.  I've never mashed that high for worrying about attenuating low enough.  I may give this experiment a try next weekend when I start my lager batches.
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Offline Wort-H.O.G.

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #341 on: February 17, 2015, 07:21:33 am »
if you interested in an experiment, throw in 6-8 oz of melanoidin, mash in at 156F-158F and let it rest for 75-90 minutes.
So you also can't taste a difference in decoctions?  I have read this from several people.  I've never mashed that high for worrying about attenuating low enough.  I may give this experiment a try next weekend when I start my lager batches.

if you haven't seen this thread, check it out. https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=22186.0
Ken- Chagrin Falls, OH
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Serving:        In Process:
Vienna IPA          O'Fest
Dort
Mead                 
Cider                         
Ger'merican Blonde
Amber Ale
Next:
Ger Pils
O'Fest

Offline coolman26

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #342 on: February 17, 2015, 07:47:57 am »
Thanks great read.  Funny that I have brewed this long and worried so much about my mash tamp.  I've always used single infusion, but was thinking about different steps.  After reading this, why would I go through the trouble? 
Jeff B

rabeb25

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #343 on: February 17, 2015, 09:41:54 am »
That didn't/doesn't hold true for me.  My mashes pretty much follow this rule of thumb:

158 =1.018
156=1.016
154=1.014
152=1.012
150=1.010
148=1.008

This is for my system, pretty much regardless of malt type.
HERMS(two loops, a heat and a cool, accurate to 1/10th of a degree), mill gap of .025, 60 minutes, 5.3-5.5 pH.

I posted my results to Denny's wall, but I have no idea how to find it.

There is no way I will mash a Pils at 156 and add melanoidian, that is a sure recipe for disaster(for me).

Offline mabrungard

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Re: That German lager flavor
« Reply #344 on: February 17, 2015, 10:23:34 am »

158 =1.018
156=1.016
154=1.014
152=1.012
150=1.010
148=1.008


Interesting result. Thinking back to some of my last brews, I believe my results are similar. I had just not thought about it in this way. Thanks.
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