Author Topic: How'd mead and cider get to be part of a beer organization.  (Read 8620 times)

Offline dbeechum

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Re: How'd mead and cider get to be part of a beer organization.
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2012, 07:45:03 AM »
"I'd be upset if a mead won Best of Show".

Years ago I judged the BOS round at a competition. When we tasted everything at the table, it came down to a RIS and a mead. The mead ended winning by universal vote.

A little while later, much to my surprise, the competition results were announced, big party, etc. The guy that had won with his mead was sporting his medal, proud as could be... for "Best of Show - Mead, Cider". The RIS had been moved to winning the BOS.

That made me pretty cheesed off because the rules said absolutely nothing about a BOS M/C and it sure as hell wasn't something we were doing as a BOS panel. I didn't say anything to the meadster because I didn't want to ruin his high.

The only thing skeevier - the RIS that "won"? That's right, brewed by the competition organizer who I heard after the BOS panel complaining that a mead shouldn't win a beer comp.

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Offline mtnrockhopper

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Re: How'd mead and cider get to be part of a beer organization.
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2012, 08:43:57 AM »
The only thing skeevier - the RIS that "won"? That's right, brewed by the competition organizer who I heard after the BOS panel complaining that a mead shouldn't win a beer comp.

Definate bull#$^&. Especially since as organizer, he could have set it up that way from the beginning if he didn't want a mead to win BOS - but he didn't.
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Offline euge

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Re: How'd mead and cider get to be part of a beer organization.
« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2012, 10:24:13 AM »
You would never say extract brewers are not really home brewers because the upfront is not as hard as doing all grain.

Some people do say that. Some people like to feel like they're different and superior. If they can't actually be better than anyone, they make up stupid ways to dump on other people.

I agree. In that regard it's all about making great homebrewed fermented products. And we should encourage that whether it is malt extract, apple or honey based if we are going to have it included in the AHA.
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Offline punatic

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Re: How'd mead and cider get to be part of a beer organization.
« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2012, 12:20:33 PM »
That sounds real familar, except I was the meadmaker and the competition organizer.  When it was discovered that one of my entries was being considered for BOS I removed myself from the BOS judging room.

I ended up taking runner-up BOS for my mead.  I was told (months) later that the judges thought my mead was hands-down BOS but the judges did not want to award BOS to anything but a beer.

This reinfornced my then-forming opinion that beer competitions are little more than ego-fests and crap shoots.   I stopped entering and judging beer competitions a year or so later.
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Offline gordonstrong

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Re: How'd mead and cider get to be part of a beer organization.
« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2012, 01:11:32 PM »
Rule for judges: If it's on the BOS table, it should be eligible for BOS.

Rule for organizers: If you don't intend to pass it to the BOS table, it better say so in the competition rules.

If more judges and organizers followed these rules, then there would be fewer problems.  Anything else is unethical.  If you don't have a problem with accepting money for a mead and cider entry, then you shouldn't have a problem with giving them an equal shot at an award.  If BOS judges aren't giving every style an equal opportunity, then you picked the wrong BOS judges.  That's true whether it's mead, American Lite Lager, a specialty beer, or anything else someone at the table might not personally approve of. 
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Offline euge

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Re: How'd mead and cider get to be part of a beer organization.
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2012, 03:05:11 PM »
Rule for judges: If it's on the BOS table, it should be eligible for BOS.

Rule for organizers: If you don't intend to pass it to the BOS table, it better say so in the competition rules.

If more judges and organizers followed these rules, then there would be fewer problems.  Anything else is unethical.  If you don't have a problem with accepting money for a mead and cider entry, then you shouldn't have a problem with giving them an equal shot at an award.  If BOS judges aren't giving every style an equal opportunity, then you picked the wrong BOS judges.  That's true whether it's mead, American Lite Lager, a specialty beer, or anything else someone at the table might not personally approve of.

Word.
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Offline dbeechum

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Re: How'd mead and cider get to be part of a beer organization.
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2012, 03:34:34 PM »
The other day I was helping with an exam and listening to some war stories and there was one from a judge talking about an experience he had at a BOS panel where one of the judges voted down everything Belgian because they don't like them.

Stuff like that is amazing to me.
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Offline denny

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Re: How'd mead and cider get to be part of a beer organization.
« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2012, 03:41:05 PM »
The other day I was helping with an exam and listening to some war stories and there was one from a judge talking about an experience he had at a BOS panel where one of the judges voted down everything Belgian because they don't like them.

Stuff like that is amazing to me.

I had a kind of similar experieince judging 2nd round at NHC a few years back.  We were judging IPA and were at the miniBOS stage.  The other judge and I were loving a particular IPA but the head judge (Master) kept pushing us toward one that had almost no hop character to it.  He finally admitted that he hated IPA and only liked Belgian beers.  The other judge and I made him go through the guidelines step by step with us and he finally admitted that the beer we liked was the winner.  It's one thing to have preferences, but it's totally unacceptable to let those preferences color your decision.
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Offline nateo

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Re: How'd mead and cider get to be part of a beer organization.
« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2012, 04:35:30 PM »
The other judge and I made him go through the guidelines step by step with us and he finally admitted that the beer we liked was the winner. 

I think it's really cool you stood up to him and made him go "by the book." The easy thing to do in those situations is to avoid confrontation and just go along with whatever the pushy guy wants.

I don't understand why people even want to be judges if they hate certain beer styles. If you only love Belgian beers and despise everything else, that's cool, but you should only be allowed to judge Belgian beer contests.
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Offline deepsouth

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Re: How'd mead and cider get to be part of a beer organization.
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2012, 04:47:56 PM »
"I'd be upset if a mead won Best of Show".

Years ago I judged the BOS round at a competition. When we tasted everything at the table, it came down to a RIS and a mead. The mead ended winning by universal vote.

A little while later, much to my surprise, the competition results were announced, big party, etc. The guy that had won with his mead was sporting his medal, proud as could be... for "Best of Show - Mead, Cider". The RIS had been moved to winning the BOS.

That made me pretty cheesed off because the rules said absolutely nothing about a BOS M/C and it sure as hell wasn't something we were doing as a BOS panel. I didn't say anything to the meadster because I didn't want to ruin his high.

The only thing skeevier - the RIS that "won"? That's right, brewed by the competition organizer who I heard after the BOS panel complaining that a mead shouldn't win a beer comp.




wow man.  that sucks to read about.
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Offline denny

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Re: How'd mead and cider get to be part of a beer organization.
« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2012, 09:17:15 AM »
The other judge and I made him go through the guidelines step by step with us and he finally admitted that the beer we liked was the winner. 

I think it's really cool you stood up to him and made him go "by the book." The easy thing to do in those situations is to avoid confrontation and just go along with whatever the pushy guy wants.

I don't understand why people even want to be judges if they hate certain beer styles. If you only love Belgian beers and despise everything else, that's cool, but you should only be allowed to judge Belgian beer contests.

I don't know about "shouldn't be allowed" but at the very least a judge should recognize their preferences and not judge a category they don't feel good about.  For example, the reason I was judging IPA that day was because I'd originally been assigned to judge wheat beers, which I don't care for at all.  I had asked to be reassigned to a category I was more comfortable with.
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Offline nateo

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Re: How'd mead and cider get to be part of a beer organization.
« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2012, 10:02:16 AM »
I don't know about "shouldn't be allowed" but at the very least a judge should recognize their preferences and not judge a category they don't feel good about.  For example, the reason I was judging IPA that day was because I'd originally been assigned to judge wheat beers, which I don't care for at all.  I had asked to be reassigned to a category I was more comfortable with.

I just meant, as an organizer you should try to keep in mind the limits of your judges' abilities and preferences to the best your abilities. I'm sure that's not always practical, and you may not always have enough of the right kinds of judges, or judges may not tell the truth about their prejudices.
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Offline mtnrockhopper

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Re: How'd mead and cider get to be part of a beer organization.
« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2012, 01:23:38 PM »
Rule for judges: If it's on the BOS table, it should be eligible for BOS.

Rule for organizers: If you don't intend to pass it to the BOS table, it better say so in the competition rules.

If more judges and organizers followed these rules, then there would be fewer problems.  Anything else is unethical.  If you don't have a problem with accepting money for a mead and cider entry, then you shouldn't have a problem with giving them an equal shot at an award.  If BOS judges aren't giving every style an equal opportunity, then you picked the wrong BOS judges.  That's true whether it's mead, American Lite Lager, a specialty beer, or anything else someone at the table might not personally approve of.

+1000 - End of story.
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Offline morticaixavier

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Re: How'd mead and cider get to be part of a beer organization.
« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2012, 03:39:48 PM »
Rule for judges: If it's on the BOS table, it should be eligible for BOS.

Rule for organizers: If you don't intend to pass it to the BOS table, it better say so in the competition rules.

If more judges and organizers followed these rules, then there would be fewer problems.  Anything else is unethical.  If you don't have a problem with accepting money for a mead and cider entry, then you shouldn't have a problem with giving them an equal shot at an award.  If BOS judges aren't giving every style an equal opportunity, then you picked the wrong BOS judges.  That's true whether it's mead, American Lite Lager, a specialty beer, or anything else someone at the table might not personally approve of.

+1000 - End of story.

Hear hear. I don't think it will stop me from entering because honestly I am super competitive when I let meself be, but I will always remember the notes on a single hop Rye IPA that said, it's a really clean beer, no faults but I didn't like that hop. specialty category must be harder to judge without letting your opinions effect your results and at least they were right up front about it but still.
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Offline tschmidlin

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Re: How'd mead and cider get to be part of a beer organization.
« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2012, 11:37:28 PM »

Hear hear. I don't think it will stop me from entering because honestly I am super competitive when I let meself be, but I will always remember the notes on a single hop Rye IPA that said, it's a really clean beer, no faults but I didn't like that hop. specialty category must be harder to judge without letting your opinions effect your results and at least they were right up front about it but still.
I think this is completely different.  If someone gave me an IPA with all Summit hops they wouldn't get a very good score.  It's not that the hop is "not my preference" but to me it is downright offensive.  If your IPA smells like onions you're not going to do well, whether you wanted it to taste like that or not.  It's a known issue and you have to be aware of that if you choose to use those hops in your beer.  There is a reason some hops are for bittering.  I can judge a pilsner or an American wheat, neither of which I am especially fond, and ignore the underlying nastiness to tell the good ones from the bad.  But hop variety selection in IPAs is a different animal, and if you choose offensive hops or ones that clash with each other or the other ingredients you can expect to lose points.  If the hops you chose clashed with the rye then it is valid criticism (assuming it was spelled out like that).  If it was something more standard and the judge is just a snob, then no, not ok.

The same goes for specialty beers and SHV beers, I often volunteer to judge those since many people don't like to.  Personal preference certainly plays a role in those beers, otherwise there is often nothing else to judge it on - the brewer may have nailed what they were going for, but you have to ask yourself if what they were going for is a good idea.  Again, the difference is between "not my cup of tea" and "this was a bad idea".  Maybe the brewer was going for a weizen made with pickles, curry powder, tofu, and chocolate - and they nailed it in all of its disgusting glory.  Is that a 50 point beer?  No.
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