[erockrph]

Does anyone else think it's weird OG and FG were the same when 3X spent so much time at 158* and 5% was just a single rest at 149* with a mashout?

You know, I remember hearing Dr. Charlie Bamforth on one of the homebrew podcasts not too long ago make an off-the-cuff comment that alluded to mash temps not having as much of an effect as commonly thought. He didn't really go into any specifics IIRC. I hadn't gotten into all-grain at that point, so the comment kind of slipped by me, but I'm wondering if this is the type of result that he was referring to.

[nateo]

I remember hearing Dr. Charlie Bamforth on one of the homebrew podcasts not too long ago make an off-the-cuff comment that alluded to mash temps not having as much of an effect as commonly thought.

I remember hearing that too. When I first started brewing, I used a lot of recipes from the brewers at Avery. All their mashes I'm aware of are at 149*, so that became my default temp. I'll occasionally mash at 162* but I can't swear it makes a difference.

[denny]

Does anyone else think it's weird OG and FG were the same when 3X spent so much time at 158* and 5% was just a single rest at 149* with a mashout?

Not really.  You got beta action with the lower temp.  It doesn't look like the 2012 NHC presentations have been posted yet, but Greg Doss from Wyeast gave a very interesting seminar about a mash temp vs. fermentability experiment he'd done.  Surprising results which kinda make me question a lot of things about mash temps.  I'm looking forward to being able to go over it again.

[kramerog]

Does anyone else think it's weird OG and FG were the same when 3X spent so much time at 158* and 5% was just a single rest at 149* with a mashout?

Worts were diluted to have the same OG.
3X mash spent 45 minutes at 149*.

[jeffy]

I just noticed that you adjusted the mash pH to 5.3 at the beginning of the acid rest.  I thought the purpose of the acid rest was to lower the pH.  Did you check the mash pH later on?  I suspect it may have been lower than optimal.

[nateo]

Worts were diluted to have the same OG.
3X mash spent 45 minutes at 149*.

Yes I had to add 3L to 3X to hit the same pre-boil gravity as 5%. The total mash volume was 19.6L so a bit more than half the mash (10L for first decoction) went from 95* to 158* in 7min, then rested for 15min before raising to boiling over 14min. So half the mash spent around 20-25min at a higher mash temp than 5% before we got to that 149* rest.

Did you check the mash pH later on? 

I checked the pH again after adding the first decoction back to main mash and got the same pH (5.3). All pH samples were cooled to between 85-88*F. Pre-boil pH was 5.7 on both. The post-boil pH was 5.4 for 3X and 5.5 for 5%. I doughed-in at 95* to avoid any protein degradation that wouldn't be present in a single-infusion. I could've doughed-in colder but it would've been a bigger jump to get to sacc. rest temps.

I used brand new calibration liquid and checked calibration before each batch. My pH meter isn't the fanciest so it may have been off a bit, but I think the numbers are as close to correct as could be expected.

[nateo]

Kai pointed out that the perceived difference in bitterness may have been due to reduced hot break in the kettle for 3X. The wort for 3X was noticeably clearer running into the kettle, so there may have been less hot break to bind the hop acids.

[erockrph]

Kai pointed out that the perceived difference in bitterness may have been due to reduced hot break in the kettle for 3X. The wort for 3X was noticeably clearer running into the kettle, so there may have been less hot break to bind the hop acids.

This is interesting. I wonder if this means a triple decoction is worthwhile for a massive IIPA.

[beersk]

Kai pointed out that the perceived difference in bitterness may have been due to reduced hot break in the kettle for 3X. The wort for 3X was noticeably clearer running into the kettle, so there may have been less hot break to bind the hop acids.

This is interesting. I wonder if this means a triple decoction is worthwhile for a massive IIPA.

Why not just a regular IPA?

[nateo]

Yeah, I was actually just thinking about using decoctions when making IPAs. It makes a lot of sense to be able to filter the hot break through the grain bed. I think the effects in an IIPA would be even more dramatic, since your utilization is working against higher gravity, and more hot break.

[bwana]

This study is very interesting. How much Melinodin did you use for 5 gallons?

[nateo]

This study is very interesting. How much Melinodin did you use for 5 gallons?

200g for 19L. So ~7oz in ~5gal.

[denny]

Kai pointed out that the perceived difference in bitterness may have been due to reduced hot break in the kettle for 3X. The wort for 3X was noticeably clearer running into the kettle, so there may have been less hot break to bind the hop acids.

This is interesting. I wonder if this means a triple decoction is worthwhile for a massive IIPA.

If you're thinking about it increasing the bitterness, I'd have to say there are easier ways.

[Kaiser]

...Greg Doss from Wyeast gave a very interesting seminar about a mash temp vs. fermentability experiment he'd done.  Surprising results which kinda make me question a lot of things about mash temps.

I'm very interested in that one as well.

[erockrph]

Kai pointed out that the perceived difference in bitterness may have been due to reduced hot break in the kettle for 3X. The wort for 3X was noticeably clearer running into the kettle, so there may have been less hot break to bind the hop acids.

This is interesting. I wonder if this means a triple decoction is worthwhile for a massive IIPA.

If you're thinking about it increasing the bitterness, I'd have to say there are easier ways.

I'm thinking specifically about IIPA's that are aiming for the 100+ IBU level, where you are close to maxing out on IBU's and you want to cram as much as you can in there. It would be interesting to see how many more IBU's you can squeeze in using a decoction, if any.

I agree for most hoppy beers, it would be a heck of a lot easier to just use a couple extra ounces of your bittering hop (or maybe some Hop Shot) to get the same result. I'm just wondering if we can somehow raise the upper limit on IBU's.

Maybe if I feel adventurous some day I may boil then chill a batch of wort to get the hot break and cold break to fall out, then rack off the trub and re-boil for 90 minutes with like 300+ IBU's worth of Hop Shot just to see what happens.