[malzig]

Tannins are always extracted and they are actually needed to precipitate haze.

Kai

I think that a lot of brewers forget that tannins are always extracted.  I like to see substantial Oberteig in the mash tun, which I interpret as good precipitation of polyphenol-protein complexes in the mash, where most of this precipitation can occur.

How low are you talking about for the calcium? I had about 60ppm Ca. 

I have recently tried a number of lagers with calcium concentrations in the 30-45 ppm range, after a number of prominent brewers suggested that pale Lagers can benefit, flavor-wise.  Usually I would shoot for 50-75 ppm for a Lager  I don't think there was an obvious flavor improvement, but the beers cleared slowly.  They have required about 2-3 weeks of lagering to clear, despite being clear at the end of fermentation, where my lagers are usually crystal clear after 1 week in the fridge. 

It's possible that the slightly higher pH, from the lower calcium, is the culprit not the calcium per se.

[jeffy]

Tannins are always extracted and they are actually needed to precipitate haze.

Kai

I think that a lot of brewers forget that tannins are always extracted.  I like to see substantial Oberteig in the mash tun, which I interpret as good precipitation of polyphenol-protein complexes in the mash, where most of this precipitation can occur.

How low are you talking about for the calcium? I had about 60ppm Ca. 

I have recently tried a number of lagers with calcium concentrations in the 30-45 ppm range, after a number of prominent brewers suggested that pale Lagers can benefit, flavor-wise.  Usually I would shoot for 50-75 ppm for a Lager  I don't think there was an obvious flavor improvement, but the beers cleared slowly.  They have required about 2-3 weeks of lagering to clear, despite being clear at the end of fermentation, where my lagers are usually crystal clear after 1 week in the fridge. 

It's possible that the slightly higher pH, from the lower calcium, is the culprit not the calcium per se.

That's new word for me - oberteig - I looked it up.  I understand this is the very fine, almost powdery stuff that sometimes collects on the top of the mash bed after fly-sparging.

[denny]

That's new word for me - oberteig - I looked it up.  I understand this is the very fine, almost powdery stuff that sometimes collects on the top of the mash bed after fly-sparging.

I sometimes see it after batch sparging, too.

[nateo]

So, is Oberteig good or bad?

[malzig]

I see Obertieg with no sparge brewing, too. It should be somewhat method agnostic and show up during the Vorlauf.  I seems like it makes sense that you might get more if you extract more protein or tannin, and your pH is good, but that would be speculation, on my part.

I consider it a positive sign that you are seeing good precipitation of protein-polyphenol complexes in the mash, where most of that should occur.  I figure that it means your mash pH is in the right spot.

[nateo]

Now that you mention it, I did notice Oberteig on 3X but not on 5%. I didn't know what that stuff was called, or what it was. I just assumed it was hot break from the decoction mash.

[Kaiser]

Now that you mention it, I did notice Oberteig on 3X but not on 5%. I didn't know what that stuff was called, or what it was. I just assumed it was hot break from the decoction mash.

A big part is the hot break from the decoction mash. In a non decoction mash the amount of protein break is much less and thus you get less Oberteig.

Kai

[Kaiser]

I consider it a positive sign that you are seeing good precipitation of protein-polyphenol complexes in the mash, where most of that should occur.  I figure that it means your mash pH is in the right spot.

hot break material is generally composed of coagulated proteins and not so much the protein/tannin complexes. This is because proteins and tannins bind very weakly and these bonds are only stable at cold temperatures. The reason why chill haze disappears with rising temperatures.

But a low mash pH will help the protein break in the mash. In fact more protein is coagulated in the mash (even in infusion mashing) than coagulates in the boil later.

Kai

[tom]

That's new word for me - oberteig - I looked it up.  I understand this is the very fine, almost powdery stuff that sometimes collects on the top of the mash bed after fly-sparging.

I sometimes see it after batch sparging, too.

+1

[narcout]

although batch sparging probably won't raise your pH too much.

I know others have had a different experience, but I find that my pH rises significantly during batch sparging unless I take corrective action (treating the sparge water with phosphoric acid and/or reserving some or all of the dark grains for the sparge). 

[Kaiser]

I find that my pH rises significantly during batch sparging unless I take corrective action (treating the sparge water with phosphoric acid and/or reserving some or all of the dark grains for the sparge).

Narcout, you must be having water with fairly high alkalinity.

Kai

[tschmidlin]

I have recently tried a number of lagers with calcium concentrations in the 30-45 ppm range, after a number of prominent brewers suggested that pale Lagers can benefit, flavor-wise.  Usually I would shoot for 50-75 ppm for a Lager  I don't think there was an obvious flavor improvement, but the beers cleared slowly.  They have required about 2-3 weeks of lagering to clear, despite being clear at the end of fermentation, where my lagers are usually crystal clear after 1 week in the fridge.

It's possible that the slightly higher pH, from the lower calcium, is the culprit not the calcium per se.

It is not a pH effect, flocculation is calcium dependant.

[Kaiser]

In my experience, hazes after cold conditioning have always been protein hazes. Even unflocculated yeast settles fast compared to protein hazes.

Kai

[narcout]

I find that my pH rises significantly during batch sparging unless I take corrective action (treating the sparge water with phosphoric acid and/or reserving some or all of the dark grains for the sparge).

Narcout, you must be having water with fairly high alkalinity.

Kai

I've actually been brewing recently with 100% RO water with the same result. I'm going to start a different thread about this so as not to highjack this one.

[nateo]

FWIW the beers in those pictures were chilled from room temp overnight. If I let them sit in the fridge for a few days, both beers have much less haze.

I've actually been brewing recently with 100% RO water with the same result. I'm going to start a different thread about this so as not to highjack this one.

I'm also surprised by that. I used to always pre-acidify my sparge water, even when batch sparging, but after not acidifying and staying </=5.7 anyway, I've stopped pre-acidifying on most batches.