Author Topic: Shift in thought regarding optimal mash pH  (Read 12042 times)

Offline brewmichigan

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Re: Shift in thought regarding optimal mash pH
« Reply #45 on: August 14, 2012, 07:36:52 AM »
Cool photo.  Does that say 52.5 C?

52.5 degree Celsius = 126.5 degree Fahrenheit

So maybe they aren't waiting to cool it completely...

So remind me again why we measure at room temp and then do a conversion? Are pH meters significantly off at any higher or lower than room temp?

It sat there for quite a while and I'm pretty sure that it ended up at room temp.  Mike K., you out there?  Do you recall?

A little late to the party but they started with it at mash temps and put the probe directly in. It then sat for a long time and eventually cooled to almost room temp. I remember it being spot on, 5.2 ph, when it finished.
Mike --- Flint, Michigan

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Re: Shift in thought regarding optimal mash pH
« Reply #46 on: August 14, 2012, 09:12:34 AM »
A little late to the party but they started with it at mash temps and put the probe directly in. It then sat for a long time and eventually cooled to almost room temp. I remember it being spot on, 5.2 ph, when it finished.

Thanks, man.  That's how I recalled it, too.
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Offline jmcamerlengo

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Re: Shift in thought regarding optimal mash pH
« Reply #47 on: August 17, 2012, 11:59:35 AM »
This has always been a very confusing topic to me. I've tried to standardize my practice with things Ive read from Kai, Martin and Gordon among others(thanks guys!). What Ive come  up with as my standard is this.
Assuming the bulk of my mash time is spent in the 148-158F range.
I will measure pH at room temperature and adjust about .2 for the pH of the mash.
I typically try to achieve a ph of 5.2 - 5.5 at mash temps. So 5.4-5.7 at room temps.
I do 5.2 for beers that I want to have a bit of twang(heffs, wits)
I do 5.5 for beers that I want malty(stouts, scot beers etc)
5.3-5.4 for everything else.

Not sure if my logic is flawed but at least its something that is consistent from batch to batch and I can adjust from there with acid/pickling lime.
Jason
-Head Brewer, Brewtus Brewers in the Shenango Valley. Hopefully opening a brewpub/nano brewery in the next couple years.

Offline positiverpr

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Re: Shift in thought regarding optimal mash pH
« Reply #48 on: August 18, 2012, 04:32:11 PM »
i'm doing about the same as you except that i like a little more sharpness so i shoot for 5.2 - 5.4(room temp). i always assumed that i was helping to preserve my beer a little better by keeping a slightly lower ph. interestingly, i was re-listening to an interview with dr bamforth last week and he commented that although beer
"cleanliness" was enhanced with acidity its "freshness" was shorthened. i'm paraphrasing on the terminology. no reference for the data but it was his visit on the brewing network session last year. anyone have input on this subject? does the source of the acidity make a difference(phos or lactic acid versus dark malt with their included anti-oxidants?) so much research to be done!

Offline Kaiser

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Re: Shift in thought regarding optimal mash pH
« Reply #49 on: August 18, 2012, 04:43:20 PM »
There is actually data that shows that the beer pH will be higher when the mash pH was lower.

the reason for this is that the low mash pH favors enzymes that increase the wort's buffer capacity. The yeast has a harder time lowering pH in this environment.

As a result many German breweries do some acidification in the mash and then more in the kettle.

Kai

Offline dbarber

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Re: Shift in thought regarding optimal mash pH
« Reply #50 on: August 24, 2012, 06:47:08 PM »
I realize that ideal mash conditions are in the 5.2-5.7 range, but what is the real difference of a mash conducted at 5.2 vs. 5.6 in terms of beer flavor.  This would be a great experiment.  How does this effect mash efficiency or beer flavor.  I think Kai has conducted some experiments in this regard.  I've made excellent beers at both ends of the pH spectrum. Tannin extraction increases with increasing pH, but what can be said for a mash conducted on he higher side of the range?

This is an interesting mechanism that isn't clearly understood in terms of it's effect on the end product. I would like to see some further experimentation on the effects of mash pH on beer flavor.

Ron, sounds like a great talk for the NHC next year.
Dave Barber
Orwigsburg, PA
President, Lehigh Valley Homebrewers
BJCP National

Offline zorch

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Re: Shift in thought regarding optimal mash pH
« Reply #51 on: September 04, 2012, 03:48:25 PM »
As a result many German breweries do some acidification in the mash and then more in the kettle.

I'm curious - How would a German brewer acidify a wort that's already in the kettle?   I was under the impression that spiking it directly with an acid would not be allowed according to the Reinheitsgebot.

Offline Kaiser

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Re: Shift in thought regarding optimal mash pH
« Reply #52 on: September 04, 2012, 04:28:44 PM »
With wort soured throug lactic bacteria from malt.

Kai

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Re: Shift in thought regarding optimal mash pH
« Reply #53 on: September 05, 2012, 08:58:13 AM »
As a result many German breweries do some acidification in the mash and then more in the kettle.

I'm curious - How would a German brewer acidify a wort that's already in the kettle?   I was under the impression that spiking it directly with an acid would not be allowed according to the Reinheitsgebot.

Kai can likely speak to this more authoritatively, but I'm under the impression that most German breweries don't worry about the R'gebot.
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Offline Kaiser

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Re: Shift in thought regarding optimal mash pH
« Reply #54 on: September 05, 2012, 09:18:49 AM »
Kai can likely speak to this more authoritatively, but I'm under the impression that most German breweries don't worry about the R'gebot.

No, they still do. I'm not exactly sure what the legal situation is, but beer brewed in Germany has to comply with the RHG to be called beer. Imported beer may not. However, the most value that brewers see in following the RHG is its marketing value. You don't want to be the first brewery who does not follow it. There was some severe backlash last when in 2006 Bitburger mentioned that they would consider rice and corn if the barley harvest doesn't supply enough malt. They had to release a statement saying "the purity law is untouchable".

Germans are very inventive when it comes to complying with the purity law yet being able to advance brewing technology. Just look at CO2 hop extract it complied with the purity law b/c fermentation CO2 is used for extracting the resin.

Kai

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Re: Shift in thought regarding optimal mash pH
« Reply #55 on: September 05, 2012, 09:44:59 AM »
Thanks, Kai!
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe