[nateo]

I've been looking around but haven't found info about hop utilization by temperature. I'm wondering if I can use FWH with a no-boil Berliner Weisse, and if so, how I'd figure what kind of bitterness I'd get from it.

[tygo]

I don't have an actual answer for you, but my guess is that you'll get some flavor and aroma from the hops but not much bitterness at all.  I don't have a specific source to point to (I only googled around for a couple of minutes) but the gist seems to be that not much isomerization, if any, is going to occur at mash temperatures

[mihalybaci]

The "Building Your IPA Hop Recipe" from the July/August 2012 issue of Zymgury says that isomerization occurs above 185F, so I imagine you wouldn't add any bitterness (or at least not very much) if you stay below that temp. The article says "time and temp dependent", but doesn't really specify the difference between 60 min at 212F or 60 min at 200F. Not sure if that helps, but maybe its a starting point?

[denny]

Stan Heironymous is writing a book about hops.  I don't know that he dug up any info on usage for it, but he might have.  You might try contacting him.

[krazykrausen]

Hops taste bitter, whether they are isomerized or not. Eat a pellet and you'll know. So you may not add any IBU's doing FWH with no boil, but if you add hops you are adding bitterness

You won't need much for a Berliner anyway. Just off the top of my head, I'd add 1oz of a Magnum (or something neutral) to the FWH, should be good

-Ton

[Kaiser]

You need isomerization to get bitterness that stays in the beer. unisomerized alpha acids don't dissolve well and the few that do will come out when the PH drops during fermentation.

Kai

[krazykrausen]

So if I add something that tastes bitter to a solution, that solution will not taste bitter? I'm not sure I understand how that can happen. A hop pellet does not isomerize in my mouth, but it tastes very bitter

*not trying to by sarcastic, I'm just not sure understand the science at play here*

-Ton

[nateo]

If I follow Kai, isomerized hop acids are more stable in solution, while unisomerized acids will drop out of solution over time. So it might be bitter at first, but bitterness should decrease with storage time?

[Kaiser]

Here is a chart from Brigg's book that might be useful: (http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=How_pH_affects_brewing#Hop_utilization)



pH drop will precipitate more unisomerized hop acids. There might be some bitterness you get from unizomerized acids still present in the wort. But its difficult to say if bitterness in a not boiled but heated wort is from isomerized or unizomerized acids.

Does it really matter? I think you'll have to experiment.

Kai

[krazykrausen]

Very helpful, thanks guys!

-Ton

[DrewG]

Could you use hop extract? Pretty sure Northern Brewer carries it.

[erockrph]

Could you use hop extract? Pretty sure Northern Brewer carries it.

NB carries Hop Shot, which is just a CO2-extracted hop extract. It needs to be boiled, just like hops. Think of it like hops in liquid form.

You are thinking of iso-AA extract. I'm not sure if there is a retailer that has this available to homebrewers.

[hoser]

Morebeer carries Isohop extract, rather pricey....

http://morebeer.com/view_product/7835//IsoHop_Bitterness_Extract_1_oz

[Kaiser]

Morebeer carries Isohop extract, rather pricey....

http://morebeer.com/view_product/7835//IsoHop_Bitterness_Extract_1_oz

Combine that with the fact:

... ISOHOP will stay fresh for approximately 2-3 months from the time it is opened ...

Not all that practical for home brewers.

Kai

[tschmidlin]

So if I add something that tastes bitter to a solution, that solution will not taste bitter? I'm not sure I understand how that can happen. A hop pellet does not isomerize in my mouth, but it tastes very bitter

*not trying to by sarcastic, I'm just not sure understand the science at play here*

-Ton

For it to taste bitter, the bitter compounds just need to come into contact with the bitter receptors on your tongue.  The molecules are present in a hop pellet, that's why it tastes bitter.  If they don't linger in the beer because they're not isomerized, then it won't taste bitter.