Author Topic: Palmer's Spreadsheet - Kettle addition  (Read 4952 times)

Offline jmcamerlengo

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Re: Palmer's Spreadsheet - Kettle addition
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2012, 11:50:46 AM »
FWIW I use Bru'n water and instead of adding anything to my sparge water I add to the boil kettle. IN my case this is almsot always gypsum and calcium chloride additions with on a VERY rare occasion epsom and kosher salt(IPA's).
Jason
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Online denny

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Re: Palmer's Spreadsheet - Kettle addition
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2012, 12:14:15 PM »
"Water: A Comprehensive Guide for Brewers" by John Palmer was supposed to come out back in April. Anyone know about this?

It's way behind. Don't know what the current pub date is.
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Offline hophead73

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Re: Palmer's Spreadsheet - Kettle addition
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2012, 02:31:54 PM »

Gypsum: 5g
Epsom: 3g
Baking Soda: 1g
Chalk: 4g

While I find that a little alkalinity can be needed in a big beer with a nice dose of crystal malts, that 130 ppm alkalinity may be excessive in my experience. 

Another consideration is the use of chalk.  I'm getting plenty of data from Bru'n Water users that says: Chalk doesn't work AT ALL within the time frame its needed during the mash.  Chalk takes a while to dissolve and then it takes more time to react.  So unless a user is creating a predissolved and CO2-reacted chalk solution, don't even think about using chalk in brewing. 

Another thing is that alkalinity is never added to sparging water.  So the issue of adding either baking soda or chalk should not come up for sparging water.  Unfortunately, there are too many water resources on the web that don't know or relate this information.

I'm sorry to hear the hophead73 is having difficulty in getting Bru'n Water to run on his machine.  That seems to be more of a possibility on machines the run non-standard operating systems or software.  So it appears that you won't have the opportunity to use Bru'n Water, but you can still get a better understanding of brewing water chemistry from the Bru'n Water site.

Any suggestions to get Bru'n Water to work on a Mac with OpenOffice? I have macros enabled and it still gives me error messages.
I was able to try it on my work PC and I see what you are saying with the sparge water additions.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't want to adjust the alkalinity of the sparge water with chalk or baking soda, only add them to the mash to adjust the Ph of the mash.
So if I were to use say Palmer's or Kaiser's spreadsheet for the initial mash additions and then went to calculate my sparge water additions, I would only want to adjust the sulfate to chloride ratio for bitterness and increase my calcium levels for a healthy yeast environment?

Offline beerprof

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Re: Palmer's Spreadsheet - Kettle addition
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2012, 04:58:45 PM »
hophead73, BrunWater works on my Mac but I use Excel. if I get a chance I'll try it with openoffice
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Offline mabrungard

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Re: Palmer's Spreadsheet - Kettle addition
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2012, 07:13:34 AM »
What about trying LibreOffice on the Mac?  OpenOffice is the old version and I understand the original developers moved on after Oracle got control of that software and they crafted LibreOffice from there.  It may be better able to perform.
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Offline AmandaK

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Re: Palmer's Spreadsheet - Kettle addition
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2012, 10:20:14 AM »
"Water: A Comprehensive Guide for Brewers" by John Palmer was supposed to come out back in April. Anyone know about this?

It's way behind. Don't know what the current pub date is.

Palmer told me at NHC that he was shooting for September 2013. Don't know if that's fact, but I might as well pass it on with a disclaimer. :)
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Offline hulkavitch

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Palmer's Spreadsheet - Kettle addition
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2012, 09:08:57 AM »
Everyone loves Bru'n water but i hear people saying that they add the most minimal salts. My question is: if you are trying to mirror a profile (malty brown for ex) on this spreadsheet you aren't going to be able to achieve that without adding multiple different salts, right?  Especially if you are starting with RO water you wont reach the target with cacl alone.

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Re: Palmer's Spreadsheet - Kettle addition
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2012, 09:09:58 AM »
Everyone loves Bru'n water but i hear people saying that they add the most minimal salts. My question is: if you are trying to mirror a profile (malty brown for ex) on this spreadsheet you aren't going to be able to achieve that without adding multiple different salts, right?  Especially if you are starting with RO water you wont reach the target with cacl alone.

Maybe, maybe not.  I don't think you can generalize it.
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Offline mabrungard

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Re: Palmer's Spreadsheet - Kettle addition
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2012, 09:24:00 AM »
Everyone loves Bru'n water but i hear people saying that they add the most minimal salts. My question is: if you are trying to mirror a profile (malty brown for ex) on this spreadsheet you aren't going to be able to achieve that without adding multiple different salts, right?  Especially if you are starting with RO water you wont reach the target with cacl alone.

The salts added to your brewing water are dependent upon the flavor character you are looking for in the finished beer.  Excepting for calcium and bicarbonate, the rest of the ions are generally added only for their flavor contribution.  There is no reason why brewing with calcium chloride alone can't produce a good beer for some styles.  As the mash acidity increases, there could be a need for some alkalinity.  But there is little need for anything except the calcium in the mash and wort. 

Its when you are interested in incorporating other flavor contributions that more mineral salts will be needed.  Brewing with only RO water and calcium chloride is espoused by AJ Delange and he is a notorious fan of chloride.  Conversely, Colin Kaminski is a huge fan of sulfate.  I sat between Mr. Chloride and Mr. Sulfate at the Water Panel in Seattle and that was an appropriate position for me.  I feel there are definitely times when either of those ions are desirable in brewing.  In addition, I feel that there are nuances that low levels of Mg and Na can produce.  That is why you will find that the color-based profiles in Bru'n Water include those minor additions.  But, a brewer is free to revise the relative levels of any ion based on their taste preferences and mineral availability.   In the end, the only thing that will matter is the calcium content and the pH of the mash. 

Enjoy! 
Martin B
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Palmer's Spreadsheet - Kettle addition
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2012, 06:45:22 AM »
That summed it upnicely, Martin.
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Online morticaixavier

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Re: Palmer's Spreadsheet - Kettle addition
« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2012, 07:39:07 AM »
Martin,

Can you expand on the nuances you find from Mg and Na? I have been going super simple lately cause I dont' really understand the water stuff past the basics so I use just some calcium chloride or equal parts calcium chloride and calcium sulfate with lime or lactic acid where appropriate. what styles, or characteristics would be highlighted by a little more Mg or Na?
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