Author Topic: Style Guidelines and Judging  (Read 7671 times)

Offline tomsawyer

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Re: Style Guidelines and Judging
« Reply #45 on: August 30, 2012, 06:32:06 AM »
Seriously. If I wanted to be an a**hole and "rip on other people's beers", I could just go to one of the many local breweries and nit pick.

Would I study for months, drive 500 miles to take the test and travel all over the Midwest (and to Seattle! - 1800 miles away), take DAYS out of my life and wade through drinking tons of beer just so I can be critical of your beer? LOLOLOLOLOL.  :o

I judge beer to hopefully give brewers the feedback they are looking for so they can make their beers better. Simple as that. :D
Yeah but you're too young yet to be cynical, jaded, and overbearing.  Give it another ten years, maybe twenty.  hehe
Lennie
Hannibal, MO

Offline AmandaK

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Re: Style Guidelines and Judging
« Reply #46 on: August 30, 2012, 06:50:32 AM »
Yeah but you're too young yet to be cynical, jaded, and overbearing.  Give it another ten years, maybe twenty.  hehe

Touche, sir. I'll get back to you in a decade or two.  :D
Amanda Kertz
Kansas City Bier Meister
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Offline nateo

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Re: Style Guidelines and Judging
« Reply #47 on: August 30, 2012, 07:53:32 AM »
I think some judges lack the language skills to adequately describe the beers they're evaluating. It's a lot easier to meaningfully describe "bad" characteristics than "good" characteristics (not just the vague 'good head' or 'nice flavor' descriptors).

There are two philosophies of judging, and both are valid as long as they're applied consistently to every entry the judge evaluates. The first is: every beer sucks, and gets points by being great. The second is:  every beer is great, and loses points for sucking. If your philosophy is the former, the scores you give will be lower than a judge operating on the latter assumption.
In der Kürze liegt die Würze.

Offline tomsawyer

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Re: Style Guidelines and Judging
« Reply #48 on: August 30, 2012, 08:42:17 AM »
There are two philosophies of judging, and both are valid as long as they're applied consistently to every entry the judge evaluates. The first is: every beer sucks, and gets points by being great. The second is:  every beer is great, and loses points for sucking. If your philosophy is the former, the scores you give will be lower than a judge operating on the latter assumption.
I can see that, the only issue occurs when you pair up with someone who is your judging style opposite.  Then it boils down to who is going to compromise in order for the scores to match up.
Lennie
Hannibal, MO

Offline nateo

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Re: Style Guidelines and Judging
« Reply #49 on: August 30, 2012, 11:36:04 AM »
I can see that, the only issue occurs when you pair up with someone who is your judging style opposite.  Then it boils down to who is going to compromise in order for the scores to match up.

Do judges have to agree on the scores for each beer? In the past, I've gotten back three BJCP sheets per beer, and each had different scores.
In der Kürze liegt die Würze.

Offline mihalybaci

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Re: Style Guidelines and Judging
« Reply #50 on: August 30, 2012, 11:54:02 AM »
7 points is the max usually, though it usually ends up being less than that after the judges discuss.

Offline hoser

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Re: Style Guidelines and Judging
« Reply #51 on: August 30, 2012, 12:39:01 PM »
7 points is the max usually, though it usually ends up being less than that after the judges discuss.

Most competitions that I have judged the scores need to be within 5 points of each other.  With the final score generally being an average of the 2 or an agreed upon consensus if one of the judges can be persuaded to raise or lower the score.

I generally try to focus on the positives and what I like about beer and then offer ideas on how I would try to make it better.  I generally try to think in terms of how I would want my beer judge and what type of feedback I would want on my score sheet to help improve my brewing.  I don't think there is any benefit to ripping on peoples beers or being a jerk.

Offline leejoreilly

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Re: Style Guidelines and Judging
« Reply #52 on: August 31, 2012, 07:10:47 AM »
Good points all, but, at its core, its "judging" - using one's best judgment about a subject, according to some set of criteria (in this case, BJCP guidelines). It has to do with the Judges' perception of the beer, not its chemical makeup as determined by some sort of lab testing. The guidelines are just that - guidelines, not definitions. How you get to a brew is up to you, but a brew made according to the guidelines are more likely to be perceived by a trained judge as deserving of a good score. And judges are human; error prone to some degree and beset by the vagaries of taste, perception and preference, no matter how much they may try to be  totally objective. And my hat is off to them.

Its a flawed system, but the best around.

Offline jeffy

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Re: Style Guidelines and Judging
« Reply #53 on: August 31, 2012, 07:31:09 AM »
7 points is the max usually, though it usually ends up being less than that after the judges discuss.

 I don't think there is any benefit to ripping on peoples beers or being a jerk.

I try to imagine that the beer I am judging was made by some high ranking bjcp judge, say Gordon Strong.  This keeps me from making really stupid comments most of the time.
Jeff Gladish, Tampa (989.3, 175.1 Apparent Rennarian)
Homebrewing since 1990
AHA member since 1991, now a lifetime member
BJCP judge since 1995

Offline AmandaK

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Re: Style Guidelines and Judging
« Reply #54 on: August 31, 2012, 08:30:28 AM »
I try to imagine that the beer I am judging was made by some high ranking bjcp judge, say Gordon Strong.  This keeps me from making really stupid comments most of the time.

I imagine what I would think if I got that score sheet back. Is it complete? Are they getting their money's worth? Am I offering constructive criticisms (if necessary)? Can they read my handwriting?
Amanda Kertz
Kansas City Bier Meister
BJCP National

Redbird Brewhouse - Current Project: Full Basement Bar Build

Offline udubdawg

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Re: Style Guidelines and Judging
« Reply #55 on: August 31, 2012, 08:41:07 AM »
I try to imagine that the beer I am judging was made by some high ranking bjcp judge, say Gordon Strong.  This keeps me from making really stupid comments most of the time.

I imagine what I would think if I got that score sheet back. Is it complete? Are they getting their money's worth? Am I offering constructive criticisms (if necessary)? Can they read my handwriting?

Good comments from both of you.  I'd like to say that I follow all of the above.
...Except I'm not so sure about that last part.  *I* can barely read my handwriting.  I definitely owe many many beers to anyone who has had to grade one of my exams.   ;D

Offline sam-who-is

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Re: Style Guidelines and Judging
« Reply #56 on: August 31, 2012, 10:18:58 AM »
I love it when I get score sheets back that has like two to three words in each comment section, like "Dark and roasty"    These judges should not get credit for judging, but when I look at where these brews wer in the flight they usually are towards the end of like a fifteen beer flight.
 
I think some judges are clueless about how to "fix" a beer too.  There is a great old book out there called "Evaluating Beer" published by Brewers Publication in 1993.  A friend let me borrow this book and I never gave it back.  It is a great book that I take to every comp.  Has great concise info that is easy to find and I think every BJCP judge should have to read this book.   Some of the info is dated but all the basic stuff is great.  There are sections by Papazian, David Eby, Ron Siebel and George Fix.  If you can find this book I highly recommend buying it.

Offline nateo

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Re: Style Guidelines and Judging
« Reply #57 on: August 31, 2012, 01:00:08 PM »
A friend let me borrow this book and I never gave it back. 

Are you still friends? If so, why was he not mad at you about that?
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Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Style Guidelines and Judging
« Reply #58 on: August 31, 2012, 01:13:05 PM »
I love it when I get score sheets back that has like two to three words in each comment section, like "Dark and roasty"    These judges should not get credit for judging, but when I look at where these brews wer in the flight they usually are towards the end of like a fifteen beer flight.
 
I think some judges are clueless about how to "fix" a beer too.  There is a great old book out there called "Evaluating Beer" published by Brewers Publication in 1993.  A friend let me borrow this book and I never gave it back.  It is a great book that I take to every comp.  Has great concise info that is easy to find and I think every BJCP judge should have to read this book.   Some of the info is dated but all the basic stuff is great.  There are sections by Papazian, David Eby, Ron Siebel and George Fix.  If you can find this book I highly recommend buying it.

A friend let me borrow this book and I never gave it back. 

Are you still friends? If so, why was he not mad at you about that?

Hey Yeah!!! I was wondering where that book got to!!!!

(just kidding, as far as I know I have never met nor been in the same city as SWI)
"Creativity is the residue of wasted time" - A. Einstein

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Offline kgs

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Re: Style Guidelines and Judging
« Reply #59 on: August 31, 2012, 02:00:11 PM »
Is it this book? http://www.amazon.com/Evaluating-Beer-Brewers-Publications/dp/0937381373/

On the OP's point, I do wonder why specify a gravity range for each style? It seems misleading, since it's not used as a measure of assessment and misleads novice entrants into thinking that this is a real standard by which the beer is judged.
K.G. Schneider
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