[mpietropaoli]

I have never had this phenolic before, and, as a dues-paying member, I'm going on a rant that's full of rhetorical questions...

Trying to find where in my process this could have happened...have made a few changes recently:

1.)  went to a BIAB set up.  Forgot to rinse the bag that I ordered from BIABrewer since i can't sew for crap.  Could there have been some chlorine used to wash the bag?  The manufacturer said no way.

2.)  maybe my under sink charcoal filter is due for a change?  HOWEVER, made a steam beer 7 days before that turned out great. 

3.)  I could have rushed this beer off the yeast.  Primary at 65 for 4 days, raised up to 75 for another 6 days, cool to 50 before racking to keg.  Was trying to get it ready for Labor Day weekend

4.)  Don't think I underpitched.  Used a 2000ml starter of US-05 (last used about 6 months ago).  Starter smelled a little sour, so decanted. 

5.)  Went to a partial chill set up where i use the IC to get it down to ~120 or so, then throw it in the ferm chest and let it get down to pitching temp, then transfer/aerate into a new fermenter

6.)  Its Jamils American Wheat, and wheat supposedly contains more ferrulic acid than other malts...(used white wheat malt)...I don't make a lot of wheat beers, is there a mashing procedure thats different?  (I would think not with BIAB/no sparge, as I don't even need rice hulls).  Also has 3lb rye malt.  Maybe I simply overdid the rye?  This is what he suggested!
 
7.)  Did a 75-minute mash, per the BIAB mavens.

8.)  This one's weird:  I had some 3 year-old pH strips, and in the steam beer I made, they read that the pH was in the 3's AFTER using 5.2 stabilizer (which I've since stopped using per Denny Conn).  However, the steam is great (so far), and an actual pH of 3 would have been vile...I know pH being off can cause this phenol

I guess if there are this many potential culprits, I need to nail down my processes a little bit.  HOWEVER, I am not typically getting off flavors, and my palette is getting better (BJCP in February!), and my wife's is excellent!

Here's my real question:
IF you were a complete maniac and wanted to try to salvage this beer, how would you feel about boiling a few ounces of orange/lemon peel, straining, and dumping the 1-2oz or so of then-cooled water with the zest flavor into the keg?  Cuz I did that.  Might do it again tomorrow if the beer doesn't get right. 

Oh did I also mention that I tried to weigh down a hop bag that was already in the keg by removing it, tying an outer layer cheesecloth around it, only to have the outer layer fall apart once the thing got back into the keg and the weight (a small glass votif holder) hit the bottom of the keg with a mocking 'klink'?

Oh did I also mention that this is my first time kegging after 3  years and 40+ brews?

If this beer doesn't turn into methlamine I will be lucky.

[majorvices]

4.)  Don't think I underpitched.  Used a 2000ml starter of US-05 (last used about 6 months ago).  Starter smelled a little sour, so decanted. 

Trying to understand this. You made a slurry from a starter of US-05 from 6 months ago? If that is the case then there is a strong possibility that the slurry was just infected with wild yeast, or possibly mutated. I would never use a slurry much older than a few weeks, let alone try to revive one that was 6 months old. If you had slants or froze the yeast in glycerin that would be a different story but you are running a risk with old yeast, starter or no.

[mpietropaoli]

4.)  Don't think I underpitched.  Used a 2000ml starter of US-05 (last used about 6 months ago).  Starter smelled a little sour, so decanted. 

Trying to understand this. You made a slurry from a starter of US-05 from 6 months ago? If that is the case then there is a strong possibility that the slurry was just infected with wild yeast, or possibly mutated. I would never use a slurry much older than a few weeks, let alone try to revive one that was 6 months old. If you had slants or froze the yeast in glycerin that would be a different story but you are running a risk with old yeast, starter or no.

Correct.  Harvested the yeast 6 months ago, washed and put in the fridge in a sanitized vial.  Made a starter, chilled, then pitched the contents of the vial and placed on stir plate.  Had a vigorous starter fermentation, but as I said, didn't smell great.  Harvested and washed again after I racked the wheat beer to the keg.  It has a SLIGHT sour/phenolic smell, but otherwise smells like fresh yeast.  I had read on other forums that ppl reuse harvested yeast (with a starter, decanted) up to a year old (?)

[Joe Sr.]

I have not re-used yeast that old, that I can recall.  But I have noticed that my starters can smell sour.

I dumped one not too long ago and used dry yeast.

I also did a split batch with a starter that smelled sour, and the beer fermented out fine.  I'm leaning towards believing that starters just don't smell great, what with all the oxygenation etc.

Both of these starters were on the same brew day, but from different strains.

If it's your first time kegging, perhaps the keg is the culprit?

[majorvices]

4.)  Don't think I underpitched.  Used a 2000ml starter of US-05 (last used about 6 months ago).  Starter smelled a little sour, so decanted. 

Trying to understand this. You made a slurry from a starter of US-05 from 6 months ago? If that is the case then there is a strong possibility that the slurry was just infected with wild yeast, or possibly mutated. I would never use a slurry much older than a few weeks, let alone try to revive one that was 6 months old. If you had slants or froze the yeast in glycerin that would be a different story but you are running a risk with old yeast, starter or no.

Correct.  Harvested the yeast 6 months ago, washed and put in the fridge in a sanitized vial.  Made a starter, chilled, then pitched the contents of the vial and placed on stir plate.  Had a vigorous starter fermentation, but as I said, didn't smell great.  Harvested and washed again after I racked the wheat beer to the keg.  It has a SLIGHT sour/phenolic smell, but otherwise smells like fresh yeast.  I had read on other forums that ppl reuse harvested yeast (with a starter, decanted) up to a year old (?)

Generally you want to handle the yeast as little as possible. You were using old yeast and you washed, made a starter and washed it again. Picking up an infection with all of that would not surprise me much.

And FWIW I have also heard of lots of people using 6 month old slurries, but IMO it is not a recommended practice.

[mpietropaoli]

I have not re-used yeast that old, that I can recall.  But I have noticed that my starters can smell sour.


If it's your first time kegging, perhaps the keg is the culprit?

Yeah starters smell sour because they don't have any hops, which is why decanting is a good move...

I had the band aid smell before I kegged, it was likely something during brewing or fermentation.

[Kaiser]

My bets are on the old yeast being the culprit. If you want to keep yeast that long, you need to use sterile practices and keep small amounts of yeast. Once it has been used in brewing yeast picks up contaminates. Good practices keep the level small enough that it doesn't matter even if the yeast is reused. But once you store the yeast for an extended amount of time you give bacteria a chance to feed on the nutrients in the slurry and their population will grow.

making a starter with old yeast may give you more fresh yeast cells, but doesn't remove the other organisms. And if you make a starter from the whole old yeast sediment you'll also get a lot of autolysis (dead yeast) products that you don't want in your beer.

Kai

[nateo]

So, the band-aid flavor is from polyphenols, right? Like 4-ethylphenols? Can we do anything to the beer at this point to reduce the solubility of polyphenols, so they'll drop out? Or can we add anything that would bind with polyphenols to drop them out of suspension?

[morticaixavier]

So, the band-aid flavor is from polyphenols, right? Like 4-ethylphenols? Can we do anything to the beer at this point to reduce the solubility of polyphenols, so they'll drop out? Or can we add anything that would bind with polyphenols to drop them out of suspension?

don't tannins bind polyphenols? makes for chill haze though. Have you tried gelatine? or boiled irish moss?

[Kaiser]

So, the band-aid flavor is from polyphenols, right? Like 4-ethylphenols? Can we do anything to the beer at this point to reduce the solubility of polyphenols, so they'll drop out? Or can we add anything that would bind with polyphenols to drop them out of suspension?

The Band-Aid flavor is from a phenolic compound. Polyphenols are different and larger. I don't think that things that work on polyphenols will work on the phenols.

Kai

[nateo]

I've got a mead I'm working on now that has the same problem. It's my first band-aid beverage, so I'm not really sure what to do about it, if anything. I think I'll try gelatin and cold-crashing. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

[mpietropaoli]

So, the band-aid flavor is from polyphenols, right? Like 4-ethylphenols? Can we do anything to the beer at this point to reduce the solubility of polyphenols, so they'll drop out? Or can we add anything that would bind with polyphenols to drop them out of suspension?

don't tannins bind polyphenols? makes for chill haze though. Have you tried gelatine? or boiled irish moss?

boil the irish moss, add directly to the keg?  should i strain it out so it doesn't clog the dip tube? 

I'm going to the store right now to get 2 oranges and a lemon to zest, boil, strain, then add.  Did this last night, and it seemed to reduce the presence of it (though my wife thinks differently). 

Yet another lesson why NOT TO RUSH A BEER!

[morticaixavier]

So, the band-aid flavor is from polyphenols, right? Like 4-ethylphenols? Can we do anything to the beer at this point to reduce the solubility of polyphenols, so they'll drop out? Or can we add anything that would bind with polyphenols to drop them out of suspension?

don't tannins bind polyphenols? makes for chill haze though. Have you tried gelatine? or boiled irish moss?

boil the irish moss, add directly to the keg?  should i strain it out so it doesn't clog the dip tube? 

I'm going to the store right now to get 2 oranges and a lemon to zest, boil, strain, then add.  Did this last night, and it seemed to reduce the presence of it (though my wife thinks differently). 

Yet another lesson why NOT TO RUSH A BEER!

I think if you were doing it in a keg then you might want to use powdered agar or puree it in a blender till fine, or use whirlfloc

[weithman5]

probs old yeast but i would still change your filter. also i think you fermented kind of warm for but if you have had success at those temps i guess i can't argue much

[mpietropaoli]

65 is warm, or the75?