[ajdarnel]

Hey all,
I have a question about recipe formulation. I am currently in the process of creating a Black IPA (CDA, whatever, you know what I mean). I usually use a combination of calculations by hand from Daniels’ “Designing Great Beers” book and the BrewPal App on my iPhone because I am OCD. But this time I am having some decent discrepancies and would like your opinion before I go any further…

I use 10.5 gallons for my calculations for final batch size (usually try to run off 12 gallons of wort from the Mash/Sparge, assume about 1.0 boil off over 60ish minutes and lose about .5 elsewhere)

68% assumed brew house efficiency

Target OG; 1.060 Target IBUs: 60 (ish)

My planned recipe is-

2 row pale malt (80% of grist): 20.5 lbs
Crystal 40L (10%): 2.7 lbs
Chocolate malt (5%): 1.7lbs
Midnight Wheat (5%): 1.2 lbs

Columbus hops (14.6%) 4 oz @15 from flameout
Nugget (12.2%) 2 oz @ 15 from flameout
Columbus 2 oz & Nugget 2oz @ flameout
Columbus 2oz & Nugget 2oz @ Dryhop, 7 days

The problem is with my IBU/GU ratio. I would like it to be less than 1.0, but above 0.9 …
The BrewPal program has my OG (for the above listed grain bill) at 1.064 and the IBUs to be 63 for a ratio of 0.98 which I am happy with. But, when I do the calculations I use OG of 1.060 and get 85 IBUs for a ratio of 1.4, which I is a little more than I am looking for…

So, does anyone have any suggestions or thoughts about which one is right and if it’s even significant? I’m not worried about the slight difference in OG but the IBUs seems pretty far apart. Thanks!
        Adam

[tomsawyer]

I would think that all late additions is going to give you comparatively less perceived bitterness than a 60min addition.  In any case I'd make the recipe as is and see if you like it.  Calculations are only estimates, the AA% on your hops is an estimate and the storage time and conditions add to the uncertainty.  Don't overthink it.

Possibly add the midnight wheat at the end of the mash to limit the character while still getting the color.

[EHall]

what temp do you plan to mash at and for how long? That will have an impact on the perception of IBU/GU ratio.

[denny]

what temp do you plan to mash at and for how long? That will have an impact on the perception of IBU/GU ratio.

That's a great point.  The ratio is a good place to start, but when you drink the beer it all becomes subjective.

[dannyjed]

Possibly add the midnight wheat at the end of the mash to limit the character while still getting the color.

Great suggestion, I would do this with the Chocolate malt as well.  IMO the roast flavor will clash with the Columbus hops.

[garc_mall]

Possibly add the midnight wheat at the end of the mash to limit the character while still getting the color.

Great suggestion, I would do this with the Chocolate malt as well.  IMO the roast flavor will clash with the Columbus hops.

In a CDA, I would actually drop the chocolate malt entirely. Bump up the midnight wheat until you hit your target color. I would also drop the crystal some and bump up the 2 row to account for the lost gravity. Then again, I hate crystal above 3/4lb per 5 gallons, and I like my CDA's and IPA's to be dry.

Maybe 22lb 2-row
          1lb C40
          1lb Midnight Wheat at sparge

I think that should get you close to your color. You might also consider doing a cold steep of the dark grains, and add that to the boil, it will extract even less roastiness.

[passlaku]

All great advice but I wonder if that is enough midnight wheat in a batch that size?  You might end up with an IBA instead.  The midnight wheat is a really nice malt it adds the lightest roast flavor with no astringency. 

[Kaiser]

you may want to check with rcklinge, his beers turn black overnight

(I couldn't resists with a black IPA and a "my beers turn black" thread having back to back posts)

Kai

[hoser]

Most of my black IPAs are as follows:
90% 2-row
5% medium crystal
5% carafa III (midnight wheat in your case)


Doesn't need to be much more complicated than that.   BUs:GUs=1:1 with most of my IBUs and hops with 20 minutes or less in the boil.

FWIW, I can't stand chocolate malts in my black IPAs.  India browns, different story

[realbeerguy]

Agree with no chocolate

[rjharper]

Personally I like a little roastiness in my CDA, otherwise it's an IPA with food coloring.  I want the roast of the barley, the bitterness / astringency of some dark malts and a touch of coffee to balance then give way to aroma and finish of hops.  I use C80, midnight wheat and Carafa III in mine.

[ajdarnel]

what temp do you plan to mash at and for how long? That will have an impact on the perception of IBU/GU ratio.
-----I plan on around 153 for about an hour.
  Thanks for all the other suggestions so far, I think I might keep some of the chocolate malt because I do want some of that roasty/coffee flavor to go along with the color. But maybe I will bump it down some and increase the 2 row..Also, as for the midnight wheat suggestions to add it at the end of the mash/before sparge--I assume I still grind it per usual, and nothing else 'tricky' besides waiting til the end to add it?
 
         thanks again,
                  Adam

[beersk]

And please...CDA stands for Cross Dressing Amateur, so be careful what acronyms you use for it

So, keep it simple and watch out for those cross dressing amateurs...

[skyler]

+1 for dumping the chocolate malt. I use 1-1.5 lbs of carafa special II (added at sparge) and that adds plenty of roasty flavor for me. This isn't a hoppy porter, it is a black IPA.

[hoser]

You will get some roast/coffee flavor from the midnight wheat. Chocolate malt will just muck it up.  The simpler (sp?) the better.  I would also mash 148-150F, but then again I like my hoppy beers bone dry.  I usually grind my roasted malts for color in a coffee grinder if you have it available.  Otherwise, a grain mill will work just find.