Author Topic: Decoction & High Water:Grain Ratio  (Read 2701 times)

Offline ndcube

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Decoction & High Water:Grain Ratio
« on: February 17, 2010, 01:24:34 PM »
I've been reading about decoctions but I'm a little confused at what to try as my water:grain ratio is 2+ for a 1.50 beer.

I assume that when I use Beersmith it calculates the pull volume at the same ratio as my mash but from what I've read you should pull it so the mash is closer to 1.2.

I've tried other formulas and get results in the same ballpark.

Maybe I'm thinking too much into it and the thicker mash weighs about the same as the thinner mash?

Offline denny

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Re: Decoction & High Water:Grain Ratio
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2010, 01:38:42 PM »
It's pretty easy, really.  In a multi step decoction, the first should contain virtually no water, the second should be moderately wet, and the third should be almost all liquid.  You want to avoid much liquid in the early decoctions so you don't denature the enzymes, which remain behind in the liquid.
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Offline ndcube

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Re: Decoction & High Water:Grain Ratio
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2010, 01:58:58 PM »
Yeah, I had read that somewhere.

I just plan on doing one with an initial infusion to 133F then decoct to 152F.

I guess I was just worried about being way off on my temp and having to pull more later. I'll just pull too much the first time and cool the leftover.

Offline denny

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Re: Decoction & High Water:Grain Ratio
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2010, 03:44:41 PM »
I'll just pull too much the first time and cool the leftover.

That's what's worked best for me.
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Offline bluesman

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Re: Decoction & High Water:Grain Ratio
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2010, 03:57:06 PM »
Here's a method that Pilsner Urquell uses:

Triple-decoction mashing: Pilsner Urquell's mash is performed in 200-hL (170-bbl) vessels and follows the same triple-decoction method used for the past 75 years (18). Thick portions of the mash are drawn off at three different times over the course of more than four hours. Each portion, or decoction, is heated to saccharification temperature, then boiled briefly, and finally returned to the main mash vessel to step up the main mash's temperature. The mash begins with cold water stirred into the grains; hot water is added to bring the temperature to 95 °F (35 °C) for an acid rest. (According to the brewery's quality control manager, Pavel Prucha, the water-to-grain ratio is 1.85 L to 1 kg.) The first decoction raises the temperature to around 127 °F (53 °C) to break down the larger proteins; the second addition raises the mash temperature to 143 °F (62 °C) for starch conversion; and the third brings the temperature to about 163 °F (73 °C) for mash-out (18).

Boiling the mash during decoction breaks down the protein matrix that surrounds the starch, making it more accessible to starch-degrading enzymes in the malt (20), which may offset the fact that the malt is not fully modified. The multistage decoction also helps to adjust the mash pH in a way the water's natural ions cannot (9). The resulting Bohemian Pilseners are a little bit darker (Pilsner Urquell is about 4 °L) and have a slightly stronger and more complex hop character than their German Pils counterparts, which are generally brewed using a double decoction mash schedule (9,20). The Urquell that is exported has a starting gravity of 12 °P (1.048 S.G.).

...and here's the link.

http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue5.3/urquell.html
Ron Price

Offline babalu87

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Re: Decoction & High Water:Grain Ratio
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2010, 05:20:00 AM »
Yeah, I had read that somewhere.

I just plan on doing one with an initial infusion to 133F then decoct to 152F.

I guess I was just worried about being way off on my temp and having to pull more later. I'll just pull too much the first time and cool the leftover.

Trust the decoction, there is a reason the Germans invented it so long ago............ it works.

If you pull even close to the volume of mash you'll be fine.
Have you watched Kaisers videos on youtube?
Jeff

On draught:
IIPA, Stout, Hefeweizen, Hallertau Pale Ale, Bitter

Primary:
Hefeweizen,Berliner Weisse, Mead

Offline ndcube

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Re: Decoction & High Water:Grain Ratio
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2010, 05:47:31 AM »
Have you watched Kaisers videos on youtube?

I have not.  Sounds enlightening.  I'll have to look them up.

Offline babalu87

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Re: Decoction & High Water:Grain Ratio
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2010, 06:13:05 AM »
Jeff

On draught:
IIPA, Stout, Hefeweizen, Hallertau Pale Ale, Bitter

Primary:
Hefeweizen,Berliner Weisse, Mead

Offline ndcube

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Offline ndcube

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Re: Decoction & High Water:Grain Ratio
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2010, 06:37:44 AM »
I'll take my own thread off-topic here.

If you mash in at the protein rest won't the amount of time the mash has to sit while the decoction heats up thin the beer out? or does the decoction make up for that?

Offline babalu87

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Re: Decoction & High Water:Grain Ratio
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2010, 06:58:56 AM »
No
The temps arent high enough at a typical protein rest
Jeff

On draught:
IIPA, Stout, Hefeweizen, Hallertau Pale Ale, Bitter

Primary:
Hefeweizen,Berliner Weisse, Mead

Offline denny

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Re: Decoction & High Water:Grain Ratio
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2010, 09:51:01 AM »
Trust the decoction, there is a reason the Germans invented it so long ago............ it works.

Um, it works for what they invented it for....undermodified malt.  Other things, I'm not so sure...
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline denny

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Re: Decoction & High Water:Grain Ratio
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2010, 09:51:56 AM »
I'll take my own thread off-topic here.

If you mash in at the protein rest won't the amount of time the mash has to sit while the decoction heats up thin the beer out?

That has been my experience.  If I do a decoction, I decoct from a beta to an alpha rest.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline babalu87

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Re: Decoction & High Water:Grain Ratio
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2010, 11:28:38 AM »
Trust the decoction, there is a reason the Germans invented it so long ago............ it works.

Um, it works for what they invented it for....undermodified malt.  Other things, I'm not so sure...

Temperature too.
I nail my mash temp everytime.

All I know is my Hefe and Dunkelweizen with a decoction mash schedule beats my Hefe and Dunkelweizen with a step mash schedule. More brew sessions with Alts, Dunkels and others are required before I would say anything regarding those.
Jeff

On draught:
IIPA, Stout, Hefeweizen, Hallertau Pale Ale, Bitter

Primary:
Hefeweizen,Berliner Weisse, Mead

Offline denny

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Re: Decoction & High Water:Grain Ratio
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2010, 11:52:21 AM »

Temperature too.
I nail my mash temp everytime.

I can never nail my temps with decoctions, at least using calculated amounts.  I need to pull a ot more and keep adding it back til I get where I want.  Guess I'm decoction dysfunctional!

Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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