Author Topic: Modern German Brewing Practices  (Read 3350 times)

Offline beerocd

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Re: Modern German Brewing Practices
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2010, 07:03:12 AM »
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Museums-_und_Traditionsbrauerei_Wippra

They do a dough in at 136 before it goes to the mash tun

OK, so there is one brewery with a wood fired ketttle that doughs in above the protein rest. Looking for maybe just a bit more info than that.... though it is a very nice read. I want to go there!

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Offline majorvices

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Re: Modern German Brewing Practices
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2010, 07:46:13 AM »
I have been busy with new responsibilities at work, hence the late response.

There is not much on my site what particular German breweries actually do.  I thought that decoctions are largely dead but I when I toured Paulaner for a second time I found out that they decoction mash most of their beers. They also hold a protein rest from which they pull the 1st decoction.  Based on their brewhouse configuration and the number of batches they run per day I’d say that they can spend up to 4 hours on a single mash.

Large non Bavarian breweries are expected to use a simple Hochkurz infusion mash where they dough in around 60 C and hold the first rest at 62-63C. There is no single infusion mashing in German brewing. Based on some statements I saw it is even frowned upon as producing beers with less character. And they don’t have to single infusion mash since the standard German brew house has a heated mash tun or the mash boil kettle also serves as mash tun.

What else do you want to know?

Most of my insight comes from text books, papers, magazines and some brewery tours. I know little how a specific brewery brews their beer, so don’t ask that. Germans brewers tend to be very secretive about their recipes and specifics of the brewing process. Even if you speak German well you’ll have a hard time getting to the details you are interested in as a brewer when you attend a public tour.

Kai

No, thats good stuff Kai. I have just wondered many times why so many German breweries adhere to methods that most homebrewers swear are obsolete. P-rests and decoctions for instance, unless they adhere to these practices strictly for tradition. I was also wondering how many breweries still use decoctions and p-rests in Germany. It sounds like many don't, but then I am always surprised how many still do.
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Offline Kaiser

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Re: Modern German Brewing Practices
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2010, 07:59:26 AM »
... adhere to methods that most homebrewers swear are obsolete. P-rests and decoctions for instance, ....

You have to ask yourself: "why do home brewers consider them obsolete?"

I have heard a number of respected and knowledge home brewers state that p-rests and/or decoction make their beer much better. But then you also hear the opposite of equally respected home brewers. I'm not taking sides in this debate but I'm planning a few of those experimts myself. You have to admit that hardly any of the German style beers brewed here taste just like the beer over there. Until I figured out why that is I'm still open for the idea that mashing may make a difference. And then there is also fermentation which is quite different as well.

Kai

Offline blatz

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Re: Modern German Brewing Practices
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2010, 08:00:04 AM »
I'm just throwing this out there, but don't many german brewers have malt made to their exact specifications?  so for example if ayinger wanted to continue its decoction traditions, perhaps they have malt made specifically to benefit from decoction?

Just food for thought - I have no knowledge of this being true.
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Offline bluesman

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Re: Modern German Brewing Practices
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2010, 10:52:31 AM »
I'm just throwing this out there, but don't many german brewers have malt made to their exact specifications?  so for example if ayinger wanted to continue its decoction traditions, perhaps they have malt made specifically to benefit from decoction?

Just food for thought - I have no knowledge of this being true.

Good point.

Brewing beer is big business and money talks...I would believe there is some custom kilning in regards to malting to achieve precise specs, but I  have no knowledge to support this. I guess it also depends on the philosophy of the brewery...are they focused on money first or quality beer...
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Offline Kaiser

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Re: Modern German Brewing Practices
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2010, 11:10:13 AM »
I'm just throwing this out there, but don't many german brewers have malt made to their exact specifications?  so for example if ayinger wanted to continue its decoction traditions, perhaps they have malt made specifically to benefit from decoction?

Yes, that is possible for large breweries. Smaller ones may not use enough to make it worth the effort.

Kai

Offline Thirsty_Monk

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Re: Modern German Brewing Practices
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2010, 12:47:00 PM »
Also Czech and Slovak brewers are using decoction mash only.
I would say that their brewing practices are heavily influenced by German brewers.
Processes are not secretive if you can read Czech or Slovak but you can not find recipes.
I visited brewery that was doing double decoction and then I also visited brewery that was doing triple decoction.

Breweries I visited did not have their own malt house and they bought it from local maltster.
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Offline majorvices

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Re: Modern German Brewing Practices
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2010, 02:19:47 PM »
I'm just throwing this out there, but don't many german brewers have malt made to their exact specifications?  so for example if ayinger wanted to continue its decoction traditions, perhaps they have malt made specifically to benefit from decoction?

Just food for thought - I have no knowledge of this being true.

I would venture a guess it is more simple than that, probably the acid rest is short and and helps to break down beta glucans to help speed up lautering. My guess - I know that I did a double decoction today and I had one heck of a gummy mash.
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Offline Jeff Renner

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Re: Modern German Brewing Practices
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2010, 06:44:58 AM »
German breweries need not get custom malt.  Undermodified malt that responds well to decoction, including specially a protein rest, is produced as part of some malt companies' lineup.  Some ten years ago or so, St. Pat's of Austin brought in some Moravian (Czech) undermodified malt.  Everyone got a sample big enough to brew with at the MCAB II technical conference in St. Louis, but I'd have to look back in my records to see what I did with it.

Decoction mashing with undermodified malt was quite a topic on HomeBrew Digest back then.  There is a lot of good info there that a google site search would turn up.
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Offline 1vertical

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Re: Modern German Brewing Practices
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2010, 07:48:46 AM »
Kaiser,
Since Zoigl beer is kind of an old tradition I suppose it is out of topic range
for the OP's subject. I have never tried Zoigl beer and wondered how it
compares to the Modern brewereys discussed here.  Have you ever
hosted the Zoigl?
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Offline 1vertical

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Re: Modern German Brewing Practices
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2010, 12:37:23 PM »
Kaiser,
Since Zoigl beer is kind of an old tradition I suppose it is out of topic range
for the OP's subject. I do not want to stray from the subject, but had to ask.
I have never tried Zoigl beer and wondered how it
compares to the Modern brewereys discussed here.  Have you ever
hosted the Zoigl?
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Offline Kaiser

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Re: Modern German Brewing Practices
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2010, 12:44:50 PM »
You know what’s funny. I just checked the forum and was thinking “where was this Zoigel beer thread?”

I didn’t know about Zoigel beer until you brought it up and I searched the web for it. Seems like a neat tradition but I expect it to taste like Kellerbier. It’s brewing process seems much simpler, more relaxed and less tightly controlled. Many brew pubs brew like this and advertise that their cloudy beers are better for you. In most cases it’s just about saving time and investment in a filter system.

Kai

Offline babalu87

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Re: Modern German Brewing Practices
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2010, 01:12:30 PM »
I almost used this as a beer label

 

http://www.zoigl.de/english/history.html
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Offline mashweasel

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Re: Modern German Brewing Practices
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2010, 04:32:05 PM »
Kai's right about the secret stuff. Rarely get anything out of a brewery other than numbers like, OG, BU and ABV. I've been to nearly every major German brewery and can't think of one that really gave me any sort of usable info. The majority of the big guys have their malt specially made for them. Its not undermodified in the least. A few big breweries still do decoction. If you want to see what some smaller breweries are doing go on a tour of Franconia and Bamburg. Tons of small guys making an awful lot of great beer. Kai is right in that I've also never seen a German brewery that does a single infusion. I'm sure there may be one out there, probably an alt or something.

As for the Zoigl, it depends where you are how good it is. I've had some great ones and some terrible ones. I've also been to Zoigl 'breweries' that were out of beer. :( Most of them have been pale, 5% abv beers with a lager ferment 6C or so and then a short lager. Some have been hazy, some quite bright. All different.
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Offline mtbrewer

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Re: Modern German Brewing Practices
« Reply #29 on: February 26, 2010, 01:05:43 PM »
There is a German brewery here in Missoula, the brewmaster seems like a good guy. You could shoot him an e-mail and see what he has to say. His beers are very good, he was a brewer in Germany before he came to the states.
http://www.bayernbrewery.com/
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