Author Topic: Where do I get EDTA?  (Read 4948 times)

Offline Kaiser

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Where do I get EDTA?
« on: September 25, 2012, 08:30:56 AM »
I asked WhiteLabs how to unflocculate heavy flocculators like WLP002 for cell counting. They replied that I have to add EDTA (Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid) or sulfuric acid. Both seem to be chelating agents, which makes sense since they can steal the calcium that is needed for flocculation.

I rather not deal with sulfuric acid if I don't have to. So I was looking to get EDTA, but it doesn't seem readily available. They sell calcium disodium EDTA in health food stores. But I wonder if it's still able to chelate more calcium.

Cynmar does sell EDTA, but not to individuals. They don't sell chemicals to individuals unless its a buffer or a dye.

Any other ideas how I can unflocculate WLP002. This yeast doesn't even unflocculate in the presence of maltose like most other flocculators do.

Kai

Offline brewmanator

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Re: Where do I get EDTA?
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2012, 08:40:12 AM »
I've never ordered anything from them for personal use, but vwr.com is where I would try first.

Looks like you need to have an approved account at VWR...

I looked on www.fishersci.com and you may be able to buy it there. 
« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 08:52:30 AM by brewmanator »
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Offline dimik

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Re: Where do I get EDTA?
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2012, 09:00:35 AM »
How much of it do you need?

Also, do you just want to break them up into individual cells or is there something more? When I started reading I immediately thought Trypsin, but that sucker has to be shipped in dry ice and kept at -80 and even then it degrades itself... unless it's a mix of Trypsin/EDTA in medium in which case it'll last a few weeks in the fridge or months if frozen. Anyway, how much do you need and what exactly are you planning to do (unless it's a secret)? If it's just counting, i.e. breaking up clumps, you'd need just a few mL... I might be able to help... And there are plenty of other agents you could use (but all of them are probably only sold to labs). I'll get back to you in a few days.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 09:04:04 AM by dimik »
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Offline kramerog

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Re: Where do I get EDTA?
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2012, 09:23:16 AM »
Maybe you can get your hands on polyphosphate.  It is approved for use in beverages.  It is most commonly used in beverages as a preservative in combination with salts of benzoic acid and sorbic acid.  Its function in preservative systems is to bind metals necessary for bacteria.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 09:25:05 AM by kramerog »
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Offline kramerog

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Re: Where do I get EDTA?
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2012, 09:26:04 AM »
Maybe you can get your hands on polyphosphate.  It is approved for use in beverages.  It is most commonly used in beverages as a preservative in combination with salts of benzoic acid and sorbic acid.  Its function in preservative systems is to bind metals necessary for bacteria.

I'm seeing that it is available as a water treatment chemical on the internet.
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Offline Kaiser

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Re: Where do I get EDTA?
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2012, 09:30:21 AM »
I have been thinking more deeply about microscopy in brewing and one of the things for which I'd like to propose a practical solution is counting heavily flocculating yeast. The solution should work for the average brewing geek.

Not being able to count WLP002 doesn't bother me too much, but if there is a simple solution I'd like to give it a try.

Dimik, using some non stable solution may be too much work. Ideally I want something that I can store on a basement shelf for years.

kramerog, I'll check polyphosphate.

Kai

Offline Kaiser

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Re: Where do I get EDTA?
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2012, 09:42:22 AM »
Maybe I have to check a hardware store for anti scale chemicals. I found this on-line: PRO Poly Guard Polyphosphate Anti-Scalant 1 Gallon. The MSDS lists poly hphosphate as the ingredient and lime scale can be removed by chelating calcium.

PBW also contains a chelating agent. Maybe I give that a try unless it ends up dissolving the yeast cells.

The product doesn't have to be food grade. I'm fine with de-flocculating a sample of known weight to establish a Billion cells per gram correlation.

Kai

Offline punatic

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Re: Where do I get EDTA?
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2012, 11:06:14 AM »
I buy mine here:
Hach Company
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Offline dimik

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Re: Where do I get EDTA?
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2012, 11:35:13 AM »
Yeah that would work... just dilute it to whatever you need it as.
I think we use 0.5M in our lab.
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Offline Kaiser

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Re: Where do I get EDTA?
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2012, 12:11:09 PM »
I buy mine here:
Hach Company

Hardness Reagent ....

This gives me the idea to try the GH test solution that I have for water tests. Maybe that chelates the calcium as well and the cells un-flocculate. I would have to test how much is actually needed.

Kai

Offline Kaiser

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Re: Where do I get EDTA?
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2012, 04:19:07 AM »
I tried some experiments last night. It looks like PBW works well with the exception that it kills the yeast. I haven't tried EDTA yet since I still have to order it. They sell it on B&H photo. I may order it from there next time I need something else.

 http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2012/10/03/yeast-un-flocculation-for-cell-counting/

Kai

Offline dimik

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Re: Where do I get EDTA?
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2012, 06:54:06 PM »
OK cool. So you're able to get it if needed, right?
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