Author Topic: First Barleywine  (Read 4639 times)

Offline tygo

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Re: First Barleywine
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2012, 07:08:00 PM »
Just assume that your efficiency will be lower and compensate accordingly.  That'll keep you from having to use DME to bump it up, but having some on hand is a good idea, as suggested.

I'd mash lower than 154.  This beer will have a good amount of residual sugar left in it even at a lower mash temp.  Or add some sugar per the Professor's suggestions to help dry it out.
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Online Joe Sr.

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Re: First Barleywine
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2012, 07:45:20 AM »
My understanding is that it is more about consistency (and in this case left over sugars). If you bottle a barleywine after 1 month, and then age for a year, the yeast all change the beer in slightly different ways. If you bulk age, all of the beer ages the same way.

I'm happy to be corrected, but I'm not sure I buy that theory.  A properly mixed beer with priming solution should be homogenous from racking into the bottling bucket, so there should not be inconsistencies like that. Yes I can understand bulk aging to be sure you don't bottle too early and avoid bottle bombs from tired yeast, but I don't buy the argument that they'll all have different sugar amounts in there if you don't.  To me that just suggests poor bottling practice.

I'm not sure that it's necessarily poor bottling practice as much as it is the increased number of variables that you have from bottle to bottle.  Bottle size, shape, fill level, amount of oxidation, priming sugar, etc.  I doubt that anyone on a homebrew level gets the exact same amount of priming sugar into each bottle.

I'm more familiar with long-term aging of wines than beer, and with wine you can get significant differences between bottles of the same age.  Also, magnums age differently than 750ml bottles, so volume may have more of an impact than you might think.  Temperature has an impact on aging and a larger volume should maintain a more consistent temperature with respect to variations in ambient temp.

Currently, I bulk age all my beers since they are in kegs.  When I first started brewing higher gravity beers, I would leave them in the carboy for months but found that to be a PITA after awhile (after 6 months or so, I typically needed the carboy for another brew).  I've found that I have the ability to keep bottled beer much longer than kegged beer since I can stash bottles and forget about them.

On a commercial level (although I'm not sure who does significant aging on a commercial level) I do believe that bulk aging would be used for consistency purposes, particularly to eliminate any variables in bottle storage, etc. prior to release.

Like a lot of other things, I would be that on the homebrew scale the impact/difference is minimal.
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Offline majorvices

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Re: First Barleywine
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2012, 08:08:37 AM »
One thing to consider about bulk againg and commercial breweries: Unless storing in BBLs it is difficult for most commercial breweries to seriously bulk age a beer. One only has a finite # of conditioning tanks and to keep one of those filled for much longer than 2-4 weeks seriously cuts into the bottom line.
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Online Joe Sr.

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Re: First Barleywine
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2012, 08:26:58 AM »
One thing to consider about bulk againg and commercial breweries: Unless storing in BBLs it is difficult for most commercial breweries to seriously bulk age a beer. One only has a finite # of conditioning tanks and to keep one of those filled for much longer than 2-4 weeks seriously cuts into the bottom line.

Yes.  What I had in mind as I was typing was the barrels that Goose Island uses for Matilda.

Those have other purposes than simply aging as the barrels impart a lot of character to the beer, as well.  I'm actually not even sure how long they age Matilda.  Not long, I do not think.
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Offline garc_mall

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Re: First Barleywine
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2012, 10:12:09 AM »
Also, I'd personally keep it in secondary for longer...but that's just me (some of my barleywines/Burton ales have stayed in secondary for a year).   I just find that it results in (to me) a better brew and lessens the likelihood of  foamouts or bottle bombs for those bottles that make it to the two year mark (or longer)...and it's those bottles that will be the best tasting, hands down.  You will wish you had made more or, at the very least, you'll wish that you had saved more.  Trust me on this. 8)

So there's a difference between bulk ageing and bottle ageing? Say you made two batches of barleywine and bottled one after one month and bottled the other after 10 months, then tasted both after one year total conditioning time (carboy+bottle), do you think there would be a big difference?

My understanding is that it is more about consistency (and in this case left over sugars). If you bottle a barleywine after 1 month, and then age for a year, the yeast all change the beer in slightly different ways. If you bulk age, all of the beer ages the same way.

I'm happy to be corrected, but I'm not sure I buy that theory.  A properly mixed beer with priming solution should be homogenous from racking into the bottling bucket, so there should not be inconsistencies like that. Yes I can understand bulk aging to be sure you don't bottle too early and avoid bottle bombs from tired yeast, but I don't buy the argument that they'll all have different sugar amounts in there if you don't.  To me that just suggests poor bottling practice.

I wasn't talking about different sugar amounts in the changes. As Joe Sr. said, two bottles can have pretty vast differences between them after a year or two. If you leave the whole beer in the carboy for that year, you are minimizing differences between the bottles. This is why I have heard that some people like to bulk age for 6mos to a year for the big beers, before bottling. The fact that it helps make sure you don't bottle to early and have bottle bombs is a bonus. I know nothing about commercial aging processes, but I agree that they probably don't age beer unless its in a barrel of some sort. I know black raven has a conditioning tank in their cold room that they condition some beers in before they keg, but I don't think it is used for more than a couple weeks, and that is to smooth out some of the barrel aged beers.
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Offline Pawtucket Patriot

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Re: First Barleywine
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2012, 08:22:13 PM »
Ok, here is a slightly revised recipe.  My normal batch sparge efficiency is 85%, so I thought estimating my efficiency for a barleywine at 65% is probably in the ballpark.  If my actual efficiency turns out to be significantly lower than that, I'll add some DME.

American Barleywine
19-C American Barleywine
Author: Matt Schwandt

Size: 5.26 gal
Efficiency: 65.0%
Attenuation: 78.0%
Calories: 347.04 kcal per 12.0 fl oz

Original Gravity: 1.103 (1.080 - 1.120)
Terminal Gravity: 1.023 (1.016 - 1.030)
Color: 16.59 (10.0 - 19.0)
Alcohol: 10.74% (8.0% - 12.0%)
Bitterness: 100.7 (50.0 - 120.0)

Ingredients:
9 lb (37.5%) 2-Row - added during mash
9 lb (37.5%) Maris Otter (Floor-Malted) - added during mash
4.5 lb (18.8%) Light Munich - added during mash
.75 lb (3.1%) Caramel Malt 60L  - added during mash
.50 lb (2.1%) Victory® Malt - added during mash
.25 lb (1.0%) Caramel Malt 120L - added during mash
1.75 oz (16.3%) Columbus (12.9%) - added during boil, boiled 60 m
1.5 oz (14.0%) Centennial (8.7%) - added during boil, boiled 20 m
1.5 oz (14.0%) Cascade (5.5%) - added during boil, boiled 20 m
1 oz (9.3%) Centennial (9.0%) - added during boil, boiled 1 m
1 oz (9.3%) Columbus (12.9%) - added during boil, boiled 1 m
2 ea Fermentis US-56 American Ale
1 ea Danstar  Nottingham (Bottling)
1.75 oz (16.3%) Cascade (6.4%) - added dry to secondary fermenter
.75 oz (7.0%) Amarillo (10.1%) - added dry to secondary fermenter
.75 oz (7.0%) Simcoe (13.6%) - added dry to secondary fermenter
.75 oz (7.0%) Styrian Goldings (4.3%) - added dry to secondary fermenter

Notes
Single infusion batch sparge
-Saccharification @ 154*F [60 min]
-Mashout @ 170*F [10 min]
-Sparge @ 170*F [10 min]

-Primary for 1 month
-Secondary with dry hops for 2 weeks
-Rack to tertiary for long-term bulk aging (6-12 months)
-Add 1 pkg Nottingham dry yeast to bottling bucket when bottling
Matt Schwandt | Minneapolis, MN
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Offline hamiltont

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Re: First Barleywine
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2012, 07:28:08 AM »
Looks awesome!  I can't wait to hear the results, next year...  Only thing I can add is be very prepared for a HUGE blow off. Temp control will be paramount with this one. US-05 is a hearty yeast so you might start fermentation in the high 50's to low 60's and as it slows down let it rise up into the high 60's. Cheers!!!
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: First Barleywine
« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2012, 07:40:49 AM »
If you control the temps, and pitch the proper amount of yeast, you don't have to bulk age. These can be ready to drink in less than 3 months.
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Offline bluesman

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Re: First Barleywine
« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2012, 09:39:07 AM »
If you control the temps, and pitch the proper amount of yeast, you don't have to bulk age. These can be ready to drink in less than 3 months.

Agreed.

I think fermentation temp control is one of the best things you can do for this style of beer.  Keeping the fusel alcohol production under control will help make this a better tasting beer. Then cellar the beer for a few months to round out the flavor profile. This beer tends to mellow out with age.
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Offline jmcamerlengo

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Re: First Barleywine
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2012, 09:27:44 AM »
Just assume that your efficiency will be lower and compensate accordingly.  That'll keep you from having to use DME to bump it up, but having some on hand is a good idea, as suggested.

I'd mash lower than 154.  This beer will have a good amount of residual sugar left in it even at a lower mash temp.  Or add some sugar per the Professor's suggestions to help dry it out.

+1.

Id throw in a pound or so of sugar or even honey at the end of the boil to help with attenuation. Also mash lower and mash long. IMO the key to a great barleywine is keeping it dry and drinkable as a beer that big can be. I mash mine at 147 for about 90 minutes.
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Offline blatz

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Re: First Barleywine
« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2012, 10:23:40 AM »
If you control the temps, and pitch the proper amount of yeast, you don't have to bulk age. These can be ready to drink in less than 3 months.

big + 1 - I have actually started to dislike aged barleywines - I like em fresh when there is a big malt body and a significant american hop punch.  My aged ones, while doing well in competitions, are sort of blase to me...
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: First Barleywine
« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2012, 10:39:44 AM »
Just assume that your efficiency will be lower and compensate accordingly.  That'll keep you from having to use DME to bump it up, but having some on hand is a good idea, as suggested.

I'd mash lower than 154.  This beer will have a good amount of residual sugar left in it even at a lower mash temp.  Or add some sugar per the Professor's suggestions to help dry it out.

+1.

Id throw in a pound or so of sugar or even honey at the end of the boil to help with attenuation. Also mash lower and mash long. IMO the key to a great barleywine is keeping it dry and drinkable as a beer that big can be. I mash mine at 147 for about 90 minutes.

If you look at the talk from Greg Doss at the 2012 NHC, he found the max. attenuation was at 153F, and at a 75 min. mash. There was a bump in the 150-154 or so range that gave more attenuation than at the 140s, and the 140s gave more attenuation than going >155 or so. My simple thinking on this is that temp would give good activity of the Alpha to chop up the long chains and the Beta to produce simple sugars off those chains.

I need to look at that again.
Jeff Rankert
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Offline Kaiser

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Re: First Barleywine
« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2012, 10:43:29 AM »
My simple thinking on this is that temp would give good activity of the Alpha to chop up the long chains and the Beta to produce simple sugars off those chains.

Once you get into the low 140s, you don't have to worry so much about a-amylase as you have to worry about incomplete gelatinization.

Kai