Author Topic: Foam stability and oxidation  (Read 2759 times)

Offline Kaiser

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1797
  • Imperial Brewing Geek
    • View Profile
    • braukaiser.com
Foam stability and oxidation
« on: October 19, 2012, 07:29:41 AM »
I don't always point to my blog articles here but I made an interesting observation last night:



The beer on the left, the one with the coarse bubbles was bottled w/o O2 and the one on the right was. The difference in foam stability is astounding. But I have to admit that this was only one bottle against another one. It's likely that the O2 didn't cause this difference and I have to see how other bottles of this beer pour.

http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2012/10/18/better-foamstability-through-oxidation/

I don't think many are playing with intentional beer oxidation, but I think brewers should. I know Fred noticed better aging through oxidation. Maybe O2 at bottling time can become a respected technique even though it flies in the face of conventional brewing wisdom.

Kai

Online morticaixavier

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 5690
  • Davis, CA
    • View Profile
    • The Best Artist in the WORLD!!!!!
Re: Foam stability and oxidation
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2012, 07:49:46 AM »
That's a great experiment Kai.

I am getting ready to bottle the rest of a keg of old ale and I don't really have a way to purge the bottles with co2. given your results I won't worry about that so much. I don't have a way to purge the headspace with pure o2 either but that's okay.
"Creativity is the residue of wasted time" - A. Einstein

Jonathan I Fuller

Offline Kaiser

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1797
  • Imperial Brewing Geek
    • View Profile
    • braukaiser.com
Re: Foam stability and oxidation
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2012, 07:51:29 AM »
what you could do is remove the foam from the head space or leave a large enough head space that there is air in the bottle. Then compare a few months later.

Online morticaixavier

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 5690
  • Davis, CA
    • View Profile
    • The Best Artist in the WORLD!!!!!
Re: Foam stability and oxidation
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2012, 07:54:31 AM »
what you could do is remove the foam from the head space or leave a large enough head space that there is air in the bottle. Then compare a few months later.

I'll give that a try. I have been filling the bottles to within about .5-.75 inches from the top and capping on foam per 'common wisdom' so when I bottle this up i'll repeat your experiment... sort of. I'll do have the bottles the 'normal' way and half your way. If I have an empty keg I can use to run co2 through I will split it three ways. tiny headspace with air, bigger headspace with air and control with co2 purged bottles.
"Creativity is the residue of wasted time" - A. Einstein

Jonathan I Fuller

Offline Kaiser

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1797
  • Imperial Brewing Geek
    • View Profile
    • braukaiser.com
Re: Foam stability and oxidation
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2012, 08:06:02 AM »
If you have some yeast around, you may also want to add yeast to some bottles. I'm always looking for repeats of the experiments I'm doing :)

Kai

Online morticaixavier

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 5690
  • Davis, CA
    • View Profile
    • The Best Artist in the WORLD!!!!!
Re: Foam stability and oxidation
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2012, 08:06:26 AM »
If you have some yeast around, you may also want to add yeast to some bottles. I'm always looking for repeats of the experiments I'm doing :)

Kai

I'll see what I can do!
"Creativity is the residue of wasted time" - A. Einstein

Jonathan I Fuller

Offline hopfenundmalz

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 4537
  • Milford, MI
    • View Profile
Re: Foam stability and oxidation
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2012, 09:41:30 AM »
Kai - were both glasses beer clean? The one on the right has bubbles on the glass below the surface of the beer.
Jeff Rankert
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild, AHA Member, BJCP Certified
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline Kaiser

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1797
  • Imperial Brewing Geek
    • View Profile
    • braukaiser.com
Re: Foam stability and oxidation
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2012, 10:47:11 AM »
Jeff,

Good point and I did think about this. There were lots more bubbles on the glass of the non-O2 beer which could be related nucleation sites like lime scale. But I also noticed the foam instability in the other glass that I used for this beer. But making sure the glasses had the exact same cleanliness for each beers was something I did not pay attention to at the time. I will make sure of this next time I compare samples. This means soaking in diluted vinegar, cleaning with soap and rinsing with RO water. Since this is a lot more work I only do that when I want to take “pretty” pictures of beers.

In general I don’t see much effect of the glass on foam stability. As mentioned in the post I regularly asses foam stability and rarely worry about special cleaning of the glasses. I wash all these glasses in the dishwasher. In the vast majority of cases the foam is pretty stable (7+ min). I know that there was no oil in or on the glass, though.

Kai

Offline hopfenundmalz

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 4537
  • Milford, MI
    • View Profile
Re: Foam stability and oxidation
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2012, 12:05:11 PM »
Jeff,

Good point and I did think about this. There were lots more bubbles on the glass of the non-O2 beer which could be related nucleation sites like lime scale. But I also noticed the foam instability in the other glass that I used for this beer. But making sure the glasses had the exact same cleanliness for each beers was something I did not pay attention to at the time. I will make sure of this next time I compare samples. This means soaking in diluted vinegar, cleaning with soap and rinsing with RO water. Since this is a lot more work I only do that when I want to take “pretty” pictures of beers.

In general I don’t see much effect of the glass on foam stability. As mentioned in the post I regularly asses foam stability and rarely worry about special cleaning of the glasses. I wash all these glasses in the dishwasher. In the vast majority of cases the foam is pretty stable (7+ min). I know that there was no oil in or on the glass, though.

Kai

Thanks, had to ask the question. I sometimes pull a glass from the cabinet that ends up looking like the one on the left, probably due to dust.
Jeff Rankert
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild, AHA Member, BJCP Certified
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Online jeffy

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2445
  • Tampa, Fl
    • View Profile
Re: Foam stability and oxidation
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2012, 01:08:53 PM »
The one on the left looks just like Ray Daniel's "example of a glass that's not clean" photo.
Jeff Gladish, Tampa (989.3, 175.1 Apparent Rennarian)
Homebrewing since 1990
AHA member since 1991, now a lifetime member
BJCP judge since 1995

Offline seajellie

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 102
    • View Profile
Re: Foam stability and oxidation
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2012, 01:58:38 PM »
In regard to Kai's comment about "better ageing with oxidation," I just did a blind triangle test with a friend and two big beers. One was a Baltic Porter (w/ lager yeast) and the other was a Belgian Dark Strong (w/ Chimay yeast); one sample of each had sat in the cellar at around 60 - 65 for six months, and the other sample had been in a fridge at 42 - 45 for that same time.

I remember that there was a difference in appearance and in the bubbles, can't remember about foam stabillity, but I have no photos to share anyway. The big thing was the taste; both of us correctly differentiated and matched both brews. I found it amusing that he preferred the refrigerated samples; I greatly preferred the cellared samples. I found the cellared examples to have somewhat sherry-like or liquor like complexity that works well with a lot of darker brews.

I've long suspected that I like a bit of oxidized ageing to the big brews, and have the proof now!

Offline Thirsty_Monk

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1842
  • Eau Claire WI
    • View Profile
Re: Foam stability and oxidation
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2012, 05:42:01 PM »
Foam stability is somewhat to interest to me.
From beer presentation point of view.

I have a small BK and I had a boil over quite often.
I discover that beers without boil-over had better foam stability then beers with boil-over.
It goes down to soluble and non soluble proteins.
So do not skim the protein from BK and do not have boil-over.
Na Zdravie

On Tap At The TapRoom:
Bohemian Pilsner
Bohemian Dark Lager
Smoked Bock
MaiBock
American Brown Ale
Marzen
Root beer

Online denny

  • Administrator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 11670
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • View Profile
    • Dennybrew
Re: Foam stability and oxidation
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2012, 10:30:35 AM »
Re: glass cleaning....I've been doing a salt scrub recently when I want sparkly clean glasses.  Get the glass slightly damp, sprinkle salt all over the surface, rub with a paper towel and rinse.  Makes a noticeable difference in beer foam.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

Offline mabrungard

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1101
    • View Profile
    • Bru'n Water
Re: Foam stability and oxidation
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2012, 11:12:09 AM »
In regard to Kai's comment about "better ageing with oxidation," I just did a blind triangle test with a friend and two big beers. One was a Baltic Porter (w/ lager yeast) and the other was a Belgian Dark Strong (w/ Chimay yeast); one sample of each had sat in the cellar at around 60 - 65 for six months, and the other sample had been in a fridge at 42 - 45 for that same time.

I remember that there was a difference in appearance and in the bubbles, can't remember about foam stabillity, but I have no photos to share anyway. The big thing was the taste; both of us correctly differentiated and matched both brews. I found it amusing that he preferred the refrigerated samples; I greatly preferred the cellared samples. I found the cellared examples to have somewhat sherry-like or liquor like complexity that works well with a lot of darker brews.

I've long suspected that I like a bit of oxidized ageing to the big brews, and have the proof now!

I think the primary thing you were witnessing was the accelerating effect of temperature on oxidation.  It certainly can be a good thing in some cases.  Not so good in others. 
Martin B
Carmel, IN

BJCP National
Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

Brewing Water Information at:
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

Like Bru'n Water on Facebook for occasional discussions on brewing water and Bru'n Water