Author Topic: FWH question  (Read 8038 times)

Offline tschmidlin

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Re: FWH question
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2012, 10:32:39 PM »
Beersmith has a FWH option when you are filling in your hop additions. I assume the math I need is all figured into that.
It does and it doesn't.  The FWH option in beersmith estimates ~10% more bitterness from a FWH addition than a 60 min addition.  If your cool with that, no problem.  Denny uses different numbers, so that wouldn't work for him.  It may be possible to change the math somewhere in beersmith, but if there is it's not obvious to me.
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Offline erockrph

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Re: FWH question
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2012, 06:13:45 AM »
FWIW, Brewer's Friend calculates IBUs from FWH as a 20 minute addition. It may not be the most accurate estimate of what a lab would report for IBUs, but for recipe formulation it's pretty close to how my palate perceives it.
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Offline weithman5

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Re: FWH question
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2012, 07:15:30 AM »
Beersmith has a FWH option when you are filling in your hop additions. I assume the math I need is all figured into that.
It does and it doesn't.  The FWH option in beersmith estimates ~10% more bitterness from a FWH addition than a 60 min addition.  If your cool with that, no problem.  Denny uses different numbers, so that wouldn't work for him.  It may be possible to change the math somewhere in beersmith, but if there is it's not obvious to me.

i brewmaster comes up with about 10% more bitterness as well
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Offline denny

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Re: FWH question
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2012, 08:44:18 AM »
FWIW, Brewer's Friend calculates IBUs from FWH as a 20 minute addition. It may not be the most accurate estimate of what a lab would report for IBUs, but for recipe formulation it's pretty close to how my palate perceives it.

That's the point I keep trying to make.  It doesn't matter how many IBUs you estimate or measure, really.  What matters is what it tastes like.
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Offline bluesman

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FWH question
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2012, 12:42:02 PM »
I am going to do the recipe of the week this Sunday. The Brown Eye Women. I think I will do the FWH thing. After reading Denny's research on it I don't see where it will change the recipe much if any. But it will avoid the boil over thing and possibly give me a bit of flavor from the hops.

I think you'll get a more pronounced hop flavor with a FWH addition than you would with the same amount of hops added at 60min during the boil, at least in my experience that has been the case. I've heard varying opinions on this, but my experience has been very positive with FWH additions. Just be sure to calculate your IBU's using FWH's as a 20min addition and I think you'll be happy with the results.
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Offline dzlater

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Re: FWH question
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2012, 02:19:18 PM »
OK now I am really confused.
If FWH give you between 10% and 20% more IBU's then a 60 minute addition , how can it equal a 20 minute addition ?
You get less IBU's from a 20 minute addition then 60 minute.

Online udubdawg

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Re: FWH question
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2012, 02:23:08 PM »
OK now I am really confused.
If FWH give you between 10% and 20% more IBU's then a 60 minute addition , how can it equal a 20 minute addition ?
You get less IBU's from a 20 minute addition then 60 minute.

check out Denny's last post.
Yes, lab equipment will say the IBUs are higher.  However what really matters is how bitter it tastes.  Perception is reality basically.  Your tongue doesn't care what the actual IBU level is, and your tongue says it tastes similar to a 20 minute addition. 

does that help any?

cheers--
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Offline tschmidlin

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Re: FWH question
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2012, 12:02:49 AM »
Your tongue doesn't care what the actual IBU level is, and your tongue says it tastes similar to a 20 minute addition. 
Well, Denny's tongue says that not everyone agrees.
Tom Schmidlin

Offline tygo

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Re: FWH question
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2012, 03:45:06 AM »
If you want to get a feel for what FWH taste like in beer, both in terms of flavor and bitterness, make a batch with all FWH.  I've done this a couple of times and it was educational.  It worked well for a kolsch.  For an ESB the bitterness (or the perception of the bitterness) wasn't enough for the style, at least in the amount I used.
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Online udubdawg

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Re: FWH question
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2012, 05:31:12 AM »
Wait, the fact that I agree with Denny doesn't completely validate it?

huh.   ;D

...fair enough Tom.

cheers--
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Offline blatz

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Re: FWH question
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2012, 07:00:43 AM »
Your tongue doesn't care what the actual IBU level is, and your tongue says it tastes similar to a 20 minute addition. 
Well, Denny's tongue says that not everyone agrees.

ding ding ding.

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Offline hubie

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Re: FWH question
« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2012, 08:07:35 AM »

check out Denny's last post.
Yes, lab equipment will say the IBUs are higher.  However what really matters is how bitter it tastes.  Perception is reality basically.  Your tongue doesn't care what the actual IBU level is, and your tongue says it tastes similar to a 20 minute addition. 


That's the part that makes it hard to get my head wrapped around.  Thinking just from an IBU standpoint lets say I'm brewing a Kolsch and I normally would only add one ounce of hops at 60 minutes to get me something like 22 IBUs.  If I were to brew the same recipe and wanted the same IBUs, but I wanted to add all my hops at 20 minutes instead, I would need about 1.7 ounces.  However, if I took those same 1.7 ounces and added them all as FWH, I would end up with something like 42 IBUs.  There has to be some interesting chemistry going on if I double my IBUs but can't taste any significant extra bitterness.

I find the whole topic of FWH interesting because I've seen other people besides Denny talk about it as a 20-minute equivalent; people with much better palates than mine.

Offline bluesman

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Re: FWH question
« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2012, 09:33:46 AM »
Your tongue doesn't care what the actual IBU level is, and your tongue says it tastes similar to a 20 minute addition. 
Well, Denny's tongue says that not everyone agrees.

Maybe we should call it "The Denny Effect". :)
Ron Price

Offline tschmidlin

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Re: FWH question
« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2012, 09:58:29 AM »
Perceived IBUs and measured IBUs are two totally different things.  Perceiving is pretty simple, we just taste and decide how bitter it seems.

Measuring IBUs (with a spec) involves extracting compounds with solvents and measuring the transmittance of light through the liquid.  You measure a blank solution with no bitterness, you measure the sample from the beer, you determine the difference and apply some factor to determine how many "IBUs" are in the beer.  The problem with the method is that there may be other things in the solution that affect the transmittance but that are not bitter, or not as bitter, or may be even more bitter than the standard "IBU".

In the case of FWH, it is possible (and maybe likely) that the extended time or different temps may create compounds that are different enough from the iso-humulone compounds to be perceived differently but not be measured differently.
Tom Schmidlin

Offline weithman5

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Re: FWH question
« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2012, 10:27:29 AM »
The only issue i have is the computer and recipe generation.  i can enter things as a 20minute addition so that i can compare the taste but the recipe has a glitch if you will because then it doesn't show up as FWH or vice versa.  no big deal for my own use, putting notes in and such but when the recipe is shared there may be. i guess just not optimal unless i can modify it in the computer
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