Author Topic: The Avery Whirlpooling discussion got me started....  (Read 2957 times)

Offline blatz

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The Avery Whirlpooling discussion got me started....
« on: October 30, 2012, 03:31:22 PM »
So the discussion in the Avery IPA thread got me piqued on doing the 45min whirlpool/hop stand-steep method again.  I tried hop stand a while back but did not give it a fair shake.

Then I started thinking about doing an only 90 min + whirlpool/hop stand + dry hop or do just FWH + whirlpool/hopstand + dry hop.

Here's what I came up with for a hop schedule - what do you think?

Quote
Style: American IPA
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 14.06 gal
Post Boil Volume: 12.48 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 12.00 gal   
Bottling Volume: 12.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.064 SG
Estimated Color: 5.8 SRM
Estimated IBU: 74.1 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 75.0 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt                   Name                                     Type          #        %/IBU         
21 lbs                Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM)           Grain         1        74.3 %       
4 lbs                 Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM)         Grain         2        14.2 %       
2 lbs                 Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM)                    Grain         3        7.1 %         
1 lbs                 Caramel/Crystal Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM)    Grain         4        3.5 %         
4.0 oz                Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM)    Grain         5        0.9 %         
2.00 oz               Simcoe [13.00 %] - First Wort 20.0 min   Hop           6        26.2 IBUs     
2.00 oz               Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 17.5 min   Hop           7        12.9 IBUs     
2.00 oz               Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 17.5 min     Hop           8        15.2 IBUs     
2.00 oz               Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 17.5 min         Hop           9        19.8 IBUs     
2.0 pkg               California Ale (White Labs #WLP001) [35. Yeast         10       -             
2.00 oz               Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Dry Hop 10.0 Da Hop           11       0.0 IBUs     
2.00 oz               Simcoe [13.00 %] - Dry Hop 10.0 Days     Hop           12       0.0 IBUs     
1.00 oz               Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - Dry Hop  Hop           13       0.0 IBUs     


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body
Total Grain Weight: 28 lbs 4.0 oz
----------------------------
Name              Description                             Step Temperat Step Time     
Mash In           Add 44.39 qt of water at 161.5 F        153.0 F       75 min       


Notes:
------
7gms gypsum, 4gm epsom, 4 gm CaCl to mash
4.4gms gypsum, 2.5gm CaCl to sparge, 2.5 epsom
The happiest people don’t necessarily have the best of everything; they just make the best of everything they have.

BJCP National: F0281

Offline troybinso

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Re: The Avery Whirlpooling discussion got me started....
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2012, 03:44:52 PM »
Which hops are going in for the "hop stand"? The ones at 17.5 minutes? If so, I think it sounds like a pretty good experiment. You might be overestimating the IBU you are getting from that, but then again you might not. I definitely get some bitterness from the whirlpool hop addition which I let sit for about 15 minutes, plus the time it takes to cool and get in the fermenter.

Offline blatz

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Re: The Avery Whirlpooling discussion got me started....
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2012, 03:57:02 PM »
Duh - yeah that might help to esplain that !

Yes the 17.5 min hops are the ones to be thrown in the whirlpool.  I used that in order to get 10% extraction according to tinseth but correct me if I am off by all means
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BJCP National: F0281

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: The Avery Whirlpooling discussion got me started....
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2012, 04:25:37 PM »
Paul, give it a try.

There are several recipes in Mitch Steele's IPA book that use a bittering then whirlpool. The thing we homebrewers have to think about is how much our temps drop while whirlpoolong. 5 or 10 gallons vs. 120 barrels (Stone) will make a differnence.
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Offline troybinso

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Re: The Avery Whirlpooling discussion got me started....
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2012, 04:53:07 PM »
I guess what I am trying to say is that it is tough to know for sure how much bitterness you get from late additions, and that it really depends on your setup. I am betting that this will be a tasty beer. Be sure to take careful tasting notes so you can estimate the bitterness level for future attempts.

Offline erockrph

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Re: The Avery Whirlpooling discussion got me started....
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2012, 08:33:39 PM »
There is a thread on the Northern Brewer forums from someone who brewed a hop-stand only IPA recently. He reported getting more bitterness than expected and less aroma than he hoped for. I think your dry hops should cover the lost aroma part. As far as bitterness goes, you really just have to make your best guess and then adjust based on your palate.

At first glance, I'd say your hop schedule looks pretty good to me. I'd roll with it and take some detailed notes.
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Offline blatz

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Re: The Avery Whirlpooling discussion got me started....
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2012, 07:09:25 AM »
think I should add one more ounce of high alpha as FWH?

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Offline erockrph

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Re: The Avery Whirlpooling discussion got me started....
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2012, 08:06:29 AM »
think I should add one more ounce of high alpha as FWH?

Can't hurt, but that's my palate.

On a side note, I've never used Simcoe as FWH or bittering in fear of the dreaded cat pee. Have you used it as FWH before? Ever got any cat pee flavors? I'm working on a dank/piny IPA with Simcoe/Chinook/Columbus. I'd love to FWH with some Simcoe, but I've heard a few reports that boiling Simcoe too long can give some cattiness.
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Offline blatz

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Re: The Avery Whirlpooling discussion got me started....
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2012, 08:11:28 AM »
think I should add one more ounce of high alpha as FWH?

Can't hurt, but that's my palate.

On a side note, I've never used Simcoe as FWH or bittering in fear of the dreaded cat pee. Have you used it as FWH before? Ever got any cat pee flavors? I'm working on a dank/piny IPA with Simcoe/Chinook/Columbus. I'd love to FWH with some Simcoe, but I've heard a few reports that boiling Simcoe too long can give some cattiness.

hmm - you bring up an excellent point.  I have not - I just moved some of my favorite flavour hop to FWH.   Maybe I will switch to a different hop for the bittering/FWH addition and bump it up a bit more.  I usually use Columbus or Chinook as bittering on my IPA, so maybe I will switch to one of those.
The happiest people don’t necessarily have the best of everything; they just make the best of everything they have.

BJCP National: F0281

Offline denny

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The Avery Whirlpooling discussion got me started....
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2012, 08:32:21 AM »
think I should add one more ounce of high alpha as FWH?

Can't hurt, but that's my palate.

On a side note, I've never used Simcoe as FWH or bittering in fear of the dreaded cat pee. Have you used it as FWH before? Ever got any cat pee flavors? I'm working on a dank/piny IPA with Simcoe/Chinook/Columbus. I'd love to FWH with some Simcoe, but I've heard a few reports that boiling Simcoe too long can give some cattiness.

I've used it for FWH many times.  Never been a problem for me.


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Offline repo

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Re: The Avery Whirlpooling discussion got me started....
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2012, 08:38:07 AM »
I FWH with Simcoe whenever I use Simcoe. Never an issue. Although I have never had cat pee and can't comment on its flavor..

Offline blatz

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Re: The Avery Whirlpooling discussion got me started....
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2012, 08:42:58 AM »
I FWH with Simcoe whenever I use Simcoe. Never an issue. Although I have never had cat pee and can't comment on its flavor..

LOL - there was that one SouthPark episode....

Maybe I should go all out and just keep the Simcoe, maybe bump it a bit higher.  If its 'catty' then I know one variable to change for next time.

Was looking forward to brewing it this weekend, but I think will get to try my new brewing system out and thus am going to stick with a simpler recipe like munich dunkel (which if I get super high efficiency will be a bock instead) and do this one in 2 weeks. 
The happiest people don’t necessarily have the best of everything; they just make the best of everything they have.

BJCP National: F0281

Offline ultravista

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Re: The Avery Whirlpooling discussion got me started....
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2012, 09:09:38 AM »
Is a active circulating whirlpool required for extraction? I ask because I do not have a pumpy but do stir like mad after flameout. It only moves for a few minutes then dies off quickly.

Would hop "steeping" for 20 to 30 minutes provide similar results?

I guess I could improvise some do-hicky for my drill to get a cylone going (no air though) if it would help.

Offline blatz

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Re: The Avery Whirlpooling discussion got me started....
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2012, 09:16:35 AM »
Is a active circulating whirlpool required for extraction? I ask because I do not have a pumpy but do stir like mad after flameout. It only moves for a few minutes then dies off quickly.

Would hop "steeping" for 20 to 30 minutes provide similar results?

I guess I could improvise some do-hicky for my drill to get a cylone going (no air though) if it would help.

pumping/whirlpooling appears to help, but standing or steeping will get some similar results.  from what I've read though, you need 40-80 minutes for maximum results.
The happiest people don’t necessarily have the best of everything; they just make the best of everything they have.

BJCP National: F0281

Offline ultravista

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Re: The Avery Whirlpooling discussion got me started....
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2012, 11:30:23 AM »
I've been doing this for a while now. Adding flameout hops, stirring, and letting it sit with a lid on the keggle. This gives ample time to cool down before running the wort through a plate chiller. I figure, if covered, I'm good to go for a while.