Author Topic: Will Double Crush Improve Efficiency?  (Read 5510 times)

Offline micsager

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Re: Will Double Crush Improve Efficiency?
« Reply #30 on: November 05, 2012, 10:42:07 AM »
This is just silly...why any homebrewer, this day and age, fly sparges is beyond me.
Because my system is set up for it and it's really easy and works well.  Are those good enough reasons?

While I'm a batch sparge kind of guy, I think any brewer can brew anyway they like.  I'm certainly in no place to criticize or speak badly of anyone's process.  One of the things that we should realize is that we do learn from each other.  But, we all have to choose our own path. 

In the end, if you add malt, hops, and yeast, it's actually hard to NOT get beer. 

Although it may be fun to try fly sparging again.  It's been a couple years though......

Offline philm63

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Re: Will Double Crush Improve Efficiency?
« Reply #31 on: November 05, 2012, 11:09:38 AM »
Improving efficiency can be done by adjusting the crush or double-crushing, sure, but do be mindful the tighter you go or if you double-crush, the more chance of damaging the husks to the extent you'll start extracting tannin.

I invoke shenanigans. Tannin extraction is a function of pH and, to a lesser extent, temperature. A super-fine crush doesn't change either.
Crush shouldn't affect tannin extraction in any way, so I recommend crushing as finely as you can get away with without sticking the sparge.

The only risk I can see is that you might increase the chance of shredding the husks, which has the potential of increasing polyphenol solubilization.

You are right - heavily damaged husk material would simply be more soluble, but at the small amounts any of this matter would make it into the boil - as Denny said; it wouldn't matter.
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Offline davidgzach

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Re: Will Double Crush Improve Efficiency?
« Reply #32 on: November 05, 2012, 11:28:45 AM »
This is just silly...why any homebrewer, this day and age, fly sparges is beyond me.
Because my system is set up for it and it's really easy and works well.  Are those good enough reasons?

+1.  My homemade fly sparger gives me consistent 80% efficiency with a 15-20 minute sparge. 
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Offline nateo

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Re: Will Double Crush Improve Efficiency?
« Reply #33 on: November 05, 2012, 11:46:38 AM »
When I switched from a fine BIAB bag to a paint strainer, I had a run of 7 or so beers there were heavily tannic. I traced it back to draff getting into the BK. My sparge pH was under 5.8 and temp was under 160* for all of those beers. So I caution anyone from assuming husk material has no effect on astringency.
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Offline malzig

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Re: Will Double Crush Improve Efficiency?
« Reply #34 on: November 05, 2012, 04:00:25 PM »
Improving efficiency can be done by adjusting the crush or double-crushing, sure, but do be mindful the tighter you go or if you double-crush, the more chance of damaging the husks to the extent you'll start extracting tannin.

I invoke shenanigans. Tannin extraction is a function of pH and, to a lesser extent, temperature. A super-fine crush doesn't change either.
Crush shouldn't affect tannin extraction in any way, so I recommend crushing as finely as you can get away with without sticking the sparge.

The only risk I can see is that you might increase the chance of shredding the husks, which has the potential of increasing polyphenol solubilization.
You are right - heavily damaged husk material would simply be more soluble, but at the small amounts any of this matter would make it into the boil - as Denny said; it wouldn't matter.
Do you mean suspended husks?  I meant solubilized, or dissolved.  All dissolved tannins will make it to the boil.  I suppose you might see this as chill haze before you notice the astringency.

Offline philm63

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Re: Will Double Crush Improve Efficiency?
« Reply #35 on: November 05, 2012, 07:23:47 PM »
Improving efficiency can be done by adjusting the crush or double-crushing, sure, but do be mindful the tighter you go or if you double-crush, the more chance of damaging the husks to the extent you'll start extracting tannin.

I invoke shenanigans. Tannin extraction is a function of pH and, to a lesser extent, temperature. A super-fine crush doesn't change either.
Crush shouldn't affect tannin extraction in any way, so I recommend crushing as finely as you can get away with without sticking the sparge.

The only risk I can see is that you might increase the chance of shredding the husks, which has the potential of increasing polyphenol solubilization.
You are right - heavily damaged husk material would simply be more soluble, but at the small amounts any of this matter would make it into the boil - as Denny said; it wouldn't matter.
Do you mean suspended husks?  I meant solubilized, or dissolved.  All dissolved tannins will make it to the boil.  I suppose you might see this as chill haze before you notice the astringency.

What I'm thinking is that any such material that makes its way into solution would likely be precipitated out in either the hot or cold break, or could be fined out later. Please correct me if I am wrong; polyphenols or tannins bind to proteins which help them fall out of suspension, right? Those that don't fall out naturally can be forced out with finings, if I am understanding this correctly. This should reduce the chance of chill haze.
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Offline malzig

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Re: Will Double Crush Improve Efficiency?
« Reply #36 on: November 05, 2012, 07:57:11 PM »
What I'm thinking is that any such material that makes its way into solution would likely be precipitated out in either the hot or cold break, or could be fined out later.
In theory, but then you need to go to the extra step of adding finings and you may still be left with some astringency.

Offline beersk

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Re: Will Double Crush Improve Efficiency?
« Reply #37 on: November 06, 2012, 12:38:29 PM »
This is just silly...why any homebrewer, this day and age, fly sparges is beyond me.
Because my system is set up for it and it's really easy and works well.  Are those good enough reasons?

While I'm a batch sparge kind of guy, I think any brewer can brew anyway they like.  I'm certainly in no place to criticize or speak badly of anyone's process.  One of the things that we should realize is that we do learn from each other.  But, we all have to choose our own path. 

In the end, if you add malt, hops, and yeast, it's actually hard to NOT get beer. 

Although it may be fun to try fly sparging again.  It's been a couple years though......
Well I never meant to imply that brewers couldn't and shouldn't do it their own way, just seems unnecessary to do it.  By all means, brew the beer however you feel. 
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Offline beersk

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Re: Will Double Crush Improve Efficiency?
« Reply #38 on: November 06, 2012, 12:39:38 PM »
When I switched from a fine BIAB bag to a paint strainer, I had a run of 7 or so beers there were heavily tannic. I traced it back to draff getting into the BK. My sparge pH was under 5.8 and temp was under 160* for all of those beers. So I caution anyone from assuming husk material has no effect on astringency.
Why did you switch to a paint strainer? And you somehow cleared up this tannic taste problem?
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Offline nateo

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Re: Will Double Crush Improve Efficiency?
« Reply #39 on: November 06, 2012, 12:51:55 PM »
Why did you switch to a paint strainer? And you somehow cleared up this tannic taste problem?

I lost my cheesecloths bags. Super weird. I think my mother-in-law threw them away when she was visiting, because she did the dishes one night and I couldn't find them after that.

I cleared up the issue by using a bottling buckets as a lauter tun and using the grain bed (in the bag) to filter the wort. So something that could be filtered by the grain bed was responsible for the astringency, and I assume that something was particulate matter from the grain bed.
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Offline weithman5

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Re: Will Double Crush Improve Efficiency?
« Reply #40 on: November 06, 2012, 01:12:10 PM »
Why did you switch to a paint strainer? And you somehow cleared up this tannic taste problem?

I lost my cheesecloths bags. Super weird. I think my mother-in-law threw them away when she was visiting, because she did the dishes one night and I couldn't find them after that.

I cleared up the issue by using a bottling buckets as a lauter tun and using the grain bed (in the bag) to filter the wort. So something that could be filtered by the grain bed was responsible for the astringency, and I assume that something was particulate matter from the grain bed.

maybe she just put a hex on your stuff 8)
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Offline beersk

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Re: Will Double Crush Improve Efficiency?
« Reply #41 on: November 06, 2012, 02:38:03 PM »
Why did you switch to a paint strainer? And you somehow cleared up this tannic taste problem?

I lost my cheesecloths bags. Super weird. I think my mother-in-law threw them away when she was visiting, because she did the dishes one night and I couldn't find them after that.

I cleared up the issue by using a bottling buckets as a lauter tun and using the grain bed (in the bag) to filter the wort. So something that could be filtered by the grain bed was responsible for the astringency, and I assume that something was particulate matter from the grain bed.
I'm using a coarse mesh bag, haven't noticed tannic flavors.  I'd imagine some of that particulate matter settles out in the chill, right? I don't dump about the last quart of liquid from the brew kettle, it has a lot of hop material and crud. So my hope is that whatever grain matter gets into the boil kettle is settled out in there after chilling.
Now ya got me all paranoid because I just switched to brew in a bag and I love it.
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Offline weithman5

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Re: Will Double Crush Improve Efficiency?
« Reply #42 on: November 06, 2012, 02:52:07 PM »
i am not in any hurry to switch from mashing in a bag
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