Author Topic: Saison de Noel part II  (Read 3024 times)

Offline goschman

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1625
    • View Profile
Saison de Noel part II
« on: November 01, 2012, 10:56:52 AM »
I see a post was started earlier so this is related. I am planning to do a Saison de Noel next. I have never brewed a Saison of any type so any help would be appreciated. From what I undestand, Saison de Noel is just a higher gravity, maltier, darker version of a Saison. Is this correct? I wasn't sure what to use for guidelines so Biere de Garde seemed close... How does this look so far?

10# Pilsner
1# Munich
1# Wheat
1/2# Caravienne
1/4# Carafa III
1# table sugar

OG 1.067
IBUs 36
SRM 16

I know the wheat may be out of place but seems to be okay. What about the caravienne?

I plan to mash at 148-150 for 75 minutes and use WY3711 with the goal of getting it to finish below 1.010

Any input?
« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 10:59:26 AM by goschman »
On Tap:                       
Lemongrass Blonde / RYEteous Super Ale / Habnero Wit / XPA #2 / American Strong Ale / Baltic Porter
              
Fermenting: nothing :(
Up Next: Kolsch, Pumpkin Alt, Irish Red

Offline morticaixavier

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 7514
  • Underhill VT
    • View Profile
    • The Best Artist in the WORLD!!!!!
Re: Saison de Noel part II
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2012, 11:07:12 AM »
one of the nice things about saison as a style is that nothing is really out of place. If you want some wheat, use some wheat, Rye? sure, millet? why not. Teff? yup.

I don't know that I would put the caravienne in but that might well be a taste thing. remember the sugar is going to lower your FG and the caravienne will raise your FG but if your taste imagination says that the contribution from the cara will be pleasant try it. it'll be beer and probably darn tasty.
"Creativity is the residue of wasted time"
-A Einstein

"errors are [...] the portals of discovery"
- J Joyce

Offline goschman

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1625
    • View Profile
Re: Saison de Noel part II
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2012, 11:09:52 AM »
Thanks! Do you think I should replace the Caravienne with Aromatic?

I also plan to bitter with Magnum, use Centennial for flavor/aroma and throw some ground coriander in at the end of the boil
On Tap:                       
Lemongrass Blonde / RYEteous Super Ale / Habnero Wit / XPA #2 / American Strong Ale / Baltic Porter
              
Fermenting: nothing :(
Up Next: Kolsch, Pumpkin Alt, Irish Red

Offline majorvices

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 8078
  • Polka. If its too loud you're too young.
    • View Profile
    • Yellowhammer Brewing Company
Saison de Noel part II
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2012, 12:14:26 PM »
I think you will be fine with the cara vienne, especially since you are more than displacing it with sugar. Especially also if you use the 3711 Saison strain. What you have, grain bill wise, looks good to me. You could possibly make it darker if it fit your fancy. Or not.
Cowboy. Pirate. Brewer.

Offline mihalybaci

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 154
    • View Profile
Re: Saison de Noel part II
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2012, 12:24:36 PM »
Thanks! Do you think I should replace the Caravienne with Aromatic?

I'd stick with the caravienne. I made a saison last year with (I think) 12 oz of caravienne. I think it added a nice subtle maltiness without being out of place.

Offline goschman

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1625
    • View Profile
Re: Saison de Noel part II
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2012, 12:29:52 PM »
Can I sub in some light crystal malt in case the homebrew store doesn't have caravienne?

Am I right on my thinking about the differences between a Saison and a Saison de Noel?
On Tap:                       
Lemongrass Blonde / RYEteous Super Ale / Habnero Wit / XPA #2 / American Strong Ale / Baltic Porter
              
Fermenting: nothing :(
Up Next: Kolsch, Pumpkin Alt, Irish Red

Offline snowtiger87

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 419
    • View Profile
Re: Saison de Noel part II
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2012, 02:24:26 PM »
I would sub special B if they don't have caravienne. It will give you a little more color but also add a pleasant plum / malt flavor similar to a Belgian-style Dubbel.
Brewing since 1989 - BJCP National Rank
Member of KROC and Foam on the Range

Fermenting: Imperial IPA, Belgian Blonde
Conditioning: Dortmunder Export, English Barleywine
On tap: CAP, Steam Beer, ESB, Honey Doppel Mai-Bock
Newly Bottled:Belgian Tripel, Belgian Easter Ale, Summer Saison

Offline majorvices

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 8078
  • Polka. If its too loud you're too young.
    • View Profile
    • Yellowhammer Brewing Company
Re: Saison de Noel part II
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2012, 07:42:40 PM »
I would sub special B if they don't have caravienne. It will give you a little more color but also add a pleasant plum / malt flavor similar to a Belgian-style Dubbel.

It's a great suggestion but the only thing I will say is that add special B only if you want it to resemble a Dubbel. If you want something "Saisonish" but dark, I'd recommend keeping with the lighter crystal. The great thing is, whatever you do, you'll do it! 8)
Cowboy. Pirate. Brewer.

Offline thebigbaker

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 721
  • Denver, CO
    • View Profile
Re: Saison de Noel part II
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2012, 09:15:01 PM »
I'm attempting my first Saison de Noel this weekend and I 'm using Caraaroma along w/ Carafa III and D-90 dark candi syrup.  This is what Northern Brewer uses in their Saison de Noel, so I figured I'd try these in mine. 
Jeremy Baker

"An escalator can never break: it can only become stairs. You should never see an Escalator Temporarily Out Of Order sign, just Escalator Temporarily Stairs. Sorry for the convenience." - Mitch Hedberg

Offline goschman

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1625
    • View Profile
Re: Saison de Noel part II
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2012, 08:20:48 AM »
Yeah I saw that recipe. I am too cheap to get the dark candi syrup. I may add more table sugar in attempt to account for that even though I know it probably is not an appropriate sub.
On Tap:                       
Lemongrass Blonde / RYEteous Super Ale / Habnero Wit / XPA #2 / American Strong Ale / Baltic Porter
              
Fermenting: nothing :(
Up Next: Kolsch, Pumpkin Alt, Irish Red

Offline thebigbaker

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 721
  • Denver, CO
    • View Profile
Re: Saison de Noel part II
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2012, 08:42:20 AM »
Yeah I saw that recipe. I am too cheap to get the dark candi syrup. I may add more table sugar in attempt to account for that even though I know it probably is not an appropriate sub.

I hear ya.  First time I'm using dark candi syrup and there was some sticker shock ($9.95 @ my LHBS).  But I figured since I'm going for a rich dark color, I'll go w/ it this time.  To compensate, I skipped the Pilsner Malt and using 2-Row that I already have on hand.
Jeremy Baker

"An escalator can never break: it can only become stairs. You should never see an Escalator Temporarily Out Of Order sign, just Escalator Temporarily Stairs. Sorry for the convenience." - Mitch Hedberg

Offline dbeechum

  • Administrator
  • Brewmaster General
  • *****
  • Posts: 2450
  • Pasadena, CA
    • View Profile
    • Experimental Brewing
Re: Saison de Noel part II
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2012, 08:48:17 AM »
Yeah I saw that recipe. I am too cheap to get the dark candi syrup. I may add more table sugar in attempt to account for that even though I know it probably is not an appropriate sub.

It's really not. Sure you'll match your strength, but the primary reason to use the dark candi syrups is because of the intense flavors that they provide. There's really no other way to get them.

Spring for the syrup once and you'll be shocked.
Drew Beechum - Maltosefalcons.com
- Vote in the AHA GC Election! - http://bit.ly/1aV9GVd  -
-----
Burbling:
Gnome is in the Details
*Experimental Brewing - The Book*
Tap:
Peanut Butter Jelly Time
Tupelo Mead
Farmhouse Brett Saison

Offline Joe Sr.

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3097
  • Chicago - NORTH SIDE
    • View Profile
Re: Saison de Noel part II
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2012, 08:50:00 AM »
Yeah I saw that recipe. I am too cheap to get the dark candi syrup. I may add more table sugar in attempt to account for that even though I know it probably is not an appropriate sub.

It's really not. Sure you'll match your strength, but the primary reason to use the dark candi syrups is because of the intense flavors that they provide. There's really no other way to get them.

Spring for the syrup once and you'll be shocked.
Yeah I saw that recipe. I am too cheap to get the dark candi syrup. I may add more table sugar in attempt to account for that even though I know it probably is not an appropriate sub.

You beat me too it, Drew.  I agree 100%.

The flavors you'll get from the syrup are worth the price and you won't get them from table sugar.

I suppose you could invert and carmelize your own sugar, but ain't nobody got time for that!
It's all in the reflexes. - Jack Burton

Offline goschman

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1625
    • View Profile
Re: Saison de Noel part II
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2012, 09:10:45 AM »
Got it thanks guys. I won't be brewing this for a couple of more weeks so I have time to make tweeks as I get closer. If I don't use dark candi sugar, special b might be a good idea.

Now I am starting to get torn between doing a normal Saison and a Saison de Noel. I wanted to do something for xmas but now I don't know....that is my problem with trying to develop recipes too soon.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2012, 09:17:52 AM by goschman »
On Tap:                       
Lemongrass Blonde / RYEteous Super Ale / Habnero Wit / XPA #2 / American Strong Ale / Baltic Porter
              
Fermenting: nothing :(
Up Next: Kolsch, Pumpkin Alt, Irish Red

Offline snowtiger87

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 419
    • View Profile
Re: Saison de Noel part II
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2012, 01:41:58 PM »
Quote
Spring for the syrup once and you'll be shocked.

Or you can just make your own. It takes about 30 minutes.

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2007/10/homemade-candi-syrup.html
Brewing since 1989 - BJCP National Rank
Member of KROC and Foam on the Range

Fermenting: Imperial IPA, Belgian Blonde
Conditioning: Dortmunder Export, English Barleywine
On tap: CAP, Steam Beer, ESB, Honey Doppel Mai-Bock
Newly Bottled:Belgian Tripel, Belgian Easter Ale, Summer Saison