Author Topic: old ale vs winter warmer  (Read 1643 times)

Offline csu007

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 267
  • Littleton, CO
    • View Profile
old ale vs winter warmer
« on: November 26, 2012, 07:57:35 PM »
Is there any major difference between these two styles. I'm looking into brewing one or both styles soon.
based on the commercial examples i'm not sure there is much difference
commercial styles old ale-Great Divide-Hibernation, winter warmer- Odell isolation, Anderson valley barney flats. are my basis for my ideas
“Sometimes when I reflect back on all the beer I drank, I feel ashamed. Then I look into the glass and think about the workers in the brewery and all of their hopes and dreams. If I didn’t drink this beer, they might be out of work and their dreams would be shattered. Then I say to myself, “It is better that I drink this beer and let their dreams come true than be selfish and worry about my liver.

Offline guido

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 217
    • View Profile
Re: old ale vs winter warmer
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2012, 08:05:52 PM »
This is totally my opinion:  Both are darker beers,have high alcohol, and good body. The winter warmer, though would have some spices, like cinnamon, nutmeg, orange peel, etc...  Maybe some fruit, like dates and/or raisins.  They should both cellar well, although that may diminish the spice charcter on the winter warmer.  Like I said, just my opinion.
Well...I woke up this morning and I got myself a beer

     -"Roadhouse Blues,"  Jim Morrison

Offline bluesman

  • Global Moderator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 8677
  • Delaware
    • View Profile
Re: old ale vs winter warmer
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2012, 08:08:30 PM »
Typically a Winter Warmer is spiced (NOT IN EVERY CASE), whereas an Old Ale is not spiced. There are variations to both styles but the main difference in flavor is the spice element. Old Ales are typically aged whereas a winter warmer can be consumed younger with very good results. Again, there are variations on both styles but you'll find that Winter Warmers are more modern in style, maltier, fuller bodied and often darker than Old Ales.
Ron Price

Offline thebigbaker

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 702
  • Denver, CO
    • View Profile
Re: old ale vs winter warmer
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2012, 08:41:14 PM »
I love GD Hibernation and Odell Isolation.  Hibernation is probably my favorite winter brew.  Neither of these have any spices added to them. I just think they are old ale style beers that just happen to be their winter seasonals.  As previously mentioned, when I think of winter warmers, I think of a dark malty beer w/hints of ginger, cinnamon, orange peel, etc... with some spicy hop spiciness, though there are a lot of variations with both styles.

As a side note, I brewed Avery's Jubilation back in early October and will keg it in a couple of weeks.  Got the recipe on Avery's website which has a section of homebrew recipes (I can't remember who it was, but someone posted a thread about Avery posting homebrew recipes of some of their beers on their site).  So check that out if you were thinking about a commercial example.  There's no spices added to Jubilation either.
Jeremy Baker

"An escalator can never break: it can only become stairs. You should never see an Escalator Temporarily Out Of Order sign, just Escalator Temporarily Stairs. Sorry for the convenience." - Mitch Hedberg

Offline santoch

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 25
  • North Bend, WA
    • View Profile
    • WAHA
Re: old ale vs winter warmer
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2012, 09:30:50 PM »
19A. Old Ale

Aroma: Malty-sweet with fruity esters, often with a complex blend of dried-fruit, vinous, caramelly, molasses, nutty, toffee, treacle, and/or other specialty malt aromas. Some alcohol and oxidative notes are acceptable, akin to those found in Sherry or Port. Hop aromas not usually present due to extended aging.

Appearance: Light amber to very dark reddish-brown color (most are fairly dark). Age and oxidation may darken the beer further. May be almost opaque (if not, should be clear). Moderate to low cream- to light tan-colored head; may be adversely affected by alcohol and age.

Flavor: Medium to high malt character with a luscious malt complexity, often with nutty, caramelly and/or molasses-like flavors. Light chocolate or roasted malt flavors are optional, but should never be prominent. Balance is often malty-sweet, but may be well hopped (the impression of bitterness often depends on amount of aging). Moderate to high fruity esters are common, and may take on a dried-fruit or vinous character. The finish may vary from dry to somewhat sweet. Extended aging may contribute oxidative flavors similar to a fine old Sherry, Port or Madeira. Alcoholic strength should be evident, though not overwhelming. Diacetyl low to none. Some wood-aged or blended versions may have a lactic or Brettanomyces character; but this is optional and should not be too strong (enter as a specialty beer if it is).

Mouthfeel: Medium to full, chewy body, although older examples may be lower in body due to continued attenuation during conditioning. Alcohol warmth is often evident and always welcome. Low to moderate carbonation, depending on age and conditioning.

Overall Impression: An ale of significant alcoholic strength, bigger than strong bitters and brown porters, though usually not as strong or rich as barleywine. Usually tilted toward a sweeter, maltier balance. “It should be a warming beer of the type that is best drunk in half pints by a warm fire on a cold winter’s night” – Michael Jackson.

Comments: Strength and character varies widely. Fits in the style space between normal gravity beers (strong bitters, brown porters) and barleywines. Can include winter warmers, strong dark milds, strong (and perhaps darker) bitters, blended strong beers (stock ale blended with a mild or bitter), and lower gravity versions of English barleywines. Many English examples, particularly winter warmers, are lower than 6% ABV.

History: A traditional English ale style, mashed at higher temperatures than strong ales to reduce attenuation, then aged at the brewery after primary fermentation (similar to the process used for historical porters). Often had age-related character (lactic, Brett, oxidation, leather) associated with “stale” beers. Used as stock ales for blending or enjoyed at full strength (stale or stock refers to beers that were aged or stored for a significant period of time). Winter warmers are a more modern style that are maltier, fuller-bodied, often darker beers that may be a brewery’s winter seasonal special offering.

Ingredients: Generous quantities of well-modified pale malt (generally English in origin, though not necessarily so), along with judicious quantities of caramel malts and other specialty character malts. Some darker examples suggest that dark malts (e.g., chocolate, black malt) may be appropriate, though sparingly so as to avoid an overly roasted character. Adjuncts (such as molasses, treacle, invert sugar or dark sugar) are often used, as are starchy adjuncts (maize, flaked barley, wheat) and malt extracts. Hop variety is not as important, as the relative balance and aging process negate much of the varietal character. British ale yeast that has low attenuation, but can handle higher alcohol levels, is traditional.
Vital Statistics:
OG: 1.060 – 1.090
IBUs: 30 – 60
FG: 1.015 – 1.022
SRM: 10 – 22
ABV: 6 – 9%

Commercial Examples: Gale’s Prize Old Ale, Burton Bridge Olde Expensive, Marston Owd Roger, Greene King Olde Suffolk Ale , J.W. Lees Moonraker, Harviestoun Old Engine Oil, Fuller’s Vintage Ale, Harvey’s Elizabethan Ale, Theakston Old Peculier (peculiar at OG 1.057), Young's Winter Warmer, Sarah Hughes Dark Ruby Mild, Samuel Smith’s Winter Welcome, Fuller’s 1845, Fuller’s Old Winter Ale, Great Divide Hibernation Ale, Founders Curmudgeon, Cooperstown Pride of Milford Special Ale, Coniston Old Man Ale, Avery Old Jubilation

============================================
21B. Christmas/Winter Specialty Spiced Beer

Aroma: A wide range of aromatics is possible, although many examples are reminiscent of Christmas cookies, gingerbread, English-type Christmas pudding, spruce trees, or mulling spices. Any combination of aromatics that suggests the holiday season is welcome. The base beer style often has a malty profile that supports the balanced presentation of the aromatics from spices and possibly other special ingredients. Additional fermentables (e.g., honey, molasses, maple syrup, etc.) may lend their own unique aromatics. Hop aromatics are often absent, subdued, or slightly spicy. Some fruit character (often of dried citrus peel, or dried fruit such as raisins or plums) is optional but acceptable. Alcohol aromatics may be found in some examples, but this character should be restrained. The overall aroma should be balanced and harmonious, and is often fairly complex and inviting.

Appearance: Generally medium amber to very dark brown (darker versions are more common). Usually clear, although darker versions may be virtually opaque. Some chill haze is acceptable. Generally has a well-formed head that is often off-white to tan.

Flavor: Many interpretations are possible; allow for brewer creativity as long as the resulting product is balanced and provides some spice presentation. Spices associated with the holiday season are typical (as mentioned in the Aroma section). The spices and optional fermentables should be supportive and blend well with the base beer style. Rich, malty and/or sweet malt-based flavors are common, and may include caramel, toast, nutty, or chocolate flavors. May include some dried fruit or dried fruit peel flavors such as raisin, plum, fig, orange peel or lemon peel. May include distinctive flavors from specific fermentables (molasses, honey, brown sugar, etc.), although these elements are not required. A light spruce or other evergreen tree character is optional but found in some examples. The wide range of special ingredients should be supportive and balanced, not so prominent as to overshadow the base beer. Bitterness and hop flavor are generally restrained so as to not interfere with the spices and special ingredients. Generally finishes rather full and satisfying, and often has some alcohol flavor. Roasted malt characteristics are rare, and not usually stronger than chocolate.

Mouthfeel: A wide range of interpretations is possible. Body is generally medium to full, and a certain malty chewiness is often present. Moderately low to moderately high carbonation is typical. Many examples will show some well-aged, warming alcohol content, but without being overly hot. The beers do not have to be overly strong to show some warming effects.

Overall Impression: A stronger, darker, spiced beer that often has a rich body and warming finish suggesting a good accompaniment for the cold winter season.

Comments: Overall balance is the key to presenting a well-made Christmas beer. The special ingredients should complement the base beer and not overwhelm it. The brewer should recognize that some combinations of base beer styles and special ingredients work well together while others do not make for harmonious combinations. THE ENTRANT MAY DECLARE AN UNDERLYING BEER STYLE AS WELL AS THE SPECIAL INGREDIENTS USED. THE BASE STYLE, SPICES OR OTHER INGREDIENTS NEED NOT BE IDENTIFIED. THE BEER MUST INCLUDE SPICES AND MAY INCLUDE OTHER FERMENTABLES (SUGARS, HONEY, MAPLE SYRUP, MOLASSES, TREACLE, ETC.) OR FRUIT. If the base beer is a classic style, the original style should come through in aroma and flavor. Whenever spices, herbs or additional fermentables are declared, each should be noticeable and distinctive in its own way (although not necessarily individually identifiable; balanced with the other ingredients is still critical). English-style Winter Warmers (some of which may be labeled Christmas Ales) are generally not spiced, and should be entered as Old Ales. Belgian-style Christmas ales should be entered as Belgian Specialty Ales (16E).

History: Throughout history, beer of a somewhat higher alcohol content and richness has been enjoyed during the winter holidays, when old friends get together to enjoy the season. Many breweries produce unique seasonal offerings that may be darker, stronger, spiced, or otherwise more characterful than their normal beers. Spiced versions are an American or Belgian tradition, since English or German breweries traditionally do not use spices in their beer.

Ingredients: Generally ales, although some dark strong lagers exist. Spices are required, and often include those evocative of the Christmas season (e.g., allspice, nutmeg, cinnamon, cloves, ginger) but any combination is possible and creativity is encouraged. Fruit peel (e.g., oranges, lemon) may be used, as may subtle additions of other fruits. May use a wide range of crystal-type malts, particularly those that add dark fruit or caramel flavors. Flavorful adjuncts are often used (e.g., molasses, treacle, invert sugar, brown sugar, honey, maple syrup, etc.).

Vital Statistics:
OG: Varies with base style
IBUs: Varies with base style
FG: Varies with base style
SRM: Varies with base style.  Usually somewhat dark.
ABV: Varies with base style.  Generally above 6%.

Commercial Examples: Anchor Our Special Ale, Harpoon Winter Warmer, Weyerbacher Winter Ale, Nils Oscar Julöl, Goose Island Christmas Ale, North Coast Wintertime Ale, Great Lakes Christmas Ale, Lakefront Holiday Spice Lager Beer, Samuel Adams Winter Lager, Troegs The Mad Elf, Jamtlands Julöl
 
Mt. Si Brewing Society
Washington Homebrewer's Association (WAHA)
BJCP GM D0799

Offline Joe Sr.

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2315
  • Chicago - NORTH SIDE
    • View Profile
Re: old ale vs winter warmer
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2012, 08:10:17 AM »
21 B I would not necessarily see as defining "winter warmer."  Spiced holiday ale, yes, but not necessarily winter warmer.

IMO, the classic examples of winter warmers are Sam Smith's and Young's.

If I were to spice a winter warmer, I would go for subtlety on the spicing, which you don't necessarily get with typical holiday beers.

Personally, I've also never been clear on the key distinctions between old ale and barley wine.  Seems like all of these styles exist on a continuum with large overlapping sections.

It's all in the reflexes. - Jack Burton

Offline reverseapachemaster

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 909
    • View Profile
    • Brain Sparging on Brewing
Re: old ale vs winter warmer
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2012, 07:49:14 AM »
Personally, I've also never been clear on the key distinctions between old ale and barley wine.  Seems like all of these styles exist on a continuum with large overlapping sections.

Doesn't really seem to be a distinction unless we agree old ale should have brett character while a barleywine should not. I guess old ales tend to have little hop character while barleywines may have more hop flavor and might be dry hopped before going in the bottle for more aroma as well.
Heck yeah I blog about homebrewing: Brain Sparging on Brewing but I'm also a lawyer: The Kielich Law Firm

Offline morticaixavier

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 5656
  • Davis, CA
    • View Profile
    • The Best Artist in the WORLD!!!!!
Re: old ale vs winter warmer
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2012, 08:55:28 AM »
Personally, I've also never been clear on the key distinctions between old ale and barley wine.  Seems like all of these styles exist on a continuum with large overlapping sections.

Doesn't really seem to be a distinction unless we agree old ale should have brett character while a barleywine should not. I guess old ales tend to have little hop character while barleywines may have more hop flavor and might be dry hopped before going in the bottle for more aroma as well.

I sort of think of old ales as sweeter than English Barley Wines, less hop bitterness, and with more 'old' character. a bit more oxidation etc.
"Creativity is the residue of wasted time" - A. Einstein

Jonathan I Fuller

Offline Joe Sr.

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2315
  • Chicago - NORTH SIDE
    • View Profile
Re: old ale vs winter warmer
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2012, 10:37:13 AM »
Personally, I've also never been clear on the key distinctions between old ale and barley wine.  Seems like all of these styles exist on a continuum with large overlapping sections.

Doesn't really seem to be a distinction unless we agree old ale should have brett character while a barleywine should not. I guess old ales tend to have little hop character while barleywines may have more hop flavor and might be dry hopped before going in the bottle for more aroma as well.

I sort of think of old ales as sweeter than English Barley Wines, less hop bitterness, and with more 'old' character. a bit more oxidation etc.

But can you not age a barley wine?  And thus the hop bitterness will mellow and more "old" character will develop... 

I've also had some hoppy old ales.  I need to go out and get some Bell's 3rd Coast Old Ale and see how hoppy it tastes compared to my clone.  It's been a few years since I've had the original.
It's all in the reflexes. - Jack Burton