Author Topic: Double Boiling, Double Fermentation  (Read 4712 times)

Offline denny

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Double Boiling, Double Fermentation
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2012, 11:31:23 AM »
I find that collecting first runnings followed by putting in more water into the mash, mixing well, letting sit for another 30 or so minutes and collecting second runnings (mixing first and second, obviously) extracts way more out of the grain than fly sparging.

Let me understand.  You mash in and mash out.  Collect all of your first wort runnings and then you add water back to your mashed grains, let sit for another 30 minutes and then collect enough 2nd runnings to combine with first runnings for you boil.  I assume the water you add is +/- 170 to 175ish and you would collect around 6.25 to 6.50 gallons for a 5 gallons batch.

Is this batch sparging?

Nope.  Batch sparging would be adding the second water addition and running off immediately.  I don't really see the point of letting the second water addition sit for 30 min.
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Offline a10t2

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Re: Double Boiling, Double Fermentation
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2012, 11:37:21 AM »
For example, I attempted to make and Old Rasputin RIS clone and it didn't hit anywhere near the OG numbers I thought I should hit.

At 1.084 in 5.0 gal, your efficiency is in the low 60s, which is reasonable for a big beer like that. Expecting 1.094 (~70% efficiency) may not be realistic, depending on your system.

Your FG (69% ADF) also seems reasonable for a recipe that's 11% crystal malt.
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Offline morticaixavier

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Re: Double Boiling, Double Fermentation
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2012, 12:05:13 PM »
For example, I attempted to make and Old Rasputin RIS clone and it didn't hit anywhere near the OG numbers I thought I should hit.

At 1.084 in 5.0 gal, your efficiency is in the low 60s, which is reasonable for a big beer like that. Expecting 1.094 (~70% efficiency) may not be realistic, depending on your system.

Your FG (69% ADF) also seems reasonable for a recipe that's 11% crystal malt.

thanks for correcting my math sean. I was pretty sure my ballpark was off a bit.

I agree that the OP may well be chasing problems that are not there.
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Offline mtnrockhopper

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Re: Double Boiling, Double Fermentation
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2012, 12:27:30 PM »
I find that collecting first runnings followed by putting in more water into the mash, mixing well, letting sit for another 30 or so minutes and collecting second runnings (mixing first and second, obviously) extracts way more out of the grain than fly sparging.

Let me understand.  You mash in and mash out.  Collect all of your first wort runnings and then you add water back to your mashed grains, let sit for another 30 minutes and then collect enough 2nd runnings to combine with first runnings for you boil.  I assume the water you add is +/- 170 to 175ish and you would collect around 6.25 to 6.50 gallons for a 5 gallons batch.

Is this batch sparging?

Nope.  Batch sparging would be adding the second water addition and running off immediately.  I don't really see the point of letting the second water addition sit for 30 min.
Sounds like batch sparging to me -- with extra time for a samich.
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Re: Double Boiling, Double Fermentation
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2012, 01:18:32 PM »
On the original topic of double boil and double ferment, I don't think that this is a practical way of making any high alcohol beer. With this technique you actually increase the unfermentable extract in the beer since you end up with the residual extract of the 1st and 2nd fermentation but only have the alcohol from the 2nd fermentation.

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Offline weithman5

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Re: Double Boiling, Double Fermentation
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2012, 01:26:10 PM »
if you read old threads and articles about making low alcohol/no alcohol beers one of the techniques is to actually boil or near boil the beer post fermentation, as this drives off alcohol.
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Offline mtnrockhopper

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Re: Double Boiling, Double Fermentation
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2012, 02:08:45 PM »
I suspect your friend is applying bad math and hoping it all goes to plan.
 
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Offline snowtiger87

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Re: Double Boiling, Double Fermentation
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2012, 02:46:07 PM »
Perhaps he was talking about the double mash that Randy Mosher described in his last book. That is where you collect the runnings from one mash, then use that as the mash water for a second mash (with new grain).

Speaking of high gravity efficiency, on my last batch of Belgian Strong Dark I was shooting for 85% (which I have been getting consistently) and a 1.090 OG. However, on this batch I got an OG of 1.106 which would equate to a 95% efficiency. I did not believe it but I calibrated my refractometer and my hydrometer matched it. I don't think I mis-weighed the grain either. Collected volume was good too. I did have a 4 lb sugar addition but I accounted for that in the recipe. Perhaps Pro-Mash is not calculating the sugar gravity points correctly.
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Offline dimik

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Re: Double Boiling, Double Fermentation
« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2012, 07:19:51 PM »
I find that collecting first runnings followed by putting in more water into the mash, mixing well, letting sit for another 30 or so minutes and collecting second runnings (mixing first and second, obviously) extracts way more out of the grain than fly sparging.

Let me understand.  You mash in and mash out.  Collect all of your first wort runnings and then you add water back to your mashed grains, let sit for another 30 minutes and then collect enough 2nd runnings to combine with first runnings for you boil.  I assume the water you add is +/- 170 to 175ish and you would collect around 6.25 to 6.50 gallons for a 5 gallons batch.

Is this batch sparging?

Nope.  Batch sparging would be adding the second water addition and running off immediately.  I don't really see the point of letting the second water addition sit for 30 min.

The point is to let more sugars dissolve out of the grain into the water. May not seem like it would help, but it really does.
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Offline Mark G

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Re: Re: Double Boiling, Double Fermentation
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2012, 07:56:29 AM »
I find that collecting first runnings followed by putting in more water into the mash, mixing well, letting sit for another 30 or so minutes and collecting second runnings (mixing first and second, obviously) extracts way more out of the grain than fly sparging.

Let me understand.  You mash in and mash out.  Collect all of your first wort runnings and then you add water back to your mashed grains, let sit for another 30 minutes and then collect enough 2nd runnings to combine with first runnings for you boil.  I assume the water you add is +/- 170 to 175ish and you would collect around 6.25 to 6.50 gallons for a 5 gallons batch.

Is this batch sparging?

Nope.  Batch sparging would be adding the second water addition and running off immediately.  I don't really see the point of letting the second water addition sit for 30 min.

The point is to let more sugars dissolve out of the grain into the water. May not seem like it would help, but it really does.
A few minutes of stirring should get any remaining sugars dissolved into the sparge water. If you're getting an efficiency boost by doing that extra 30 minute rest, you probably didn't have complete conversion in your initial mash rest.
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Offline denny

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Double Boiling, Double Fermentation
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2012, 09:56:32 AM »
I find that collecting first runnings followed by putting in more water into the mash, mixing well, letting sit for another 30 or so minutes and collecting second runnings (mixing first and second, obviously) extracts way more out of the grain than fly sparging.

Let me understand.  You mash in and mash out.  Collect all of your first wort runnings and then you add water back to your mashed grains, let sit for another 30 minutes and then collect enough 2nd runnings to combine with first runnings for you boil.  I assume the water you add is +/- 170 to 175ish and you would collect around 6.25 to 6.50 gallons for a 5 gallons batch.

Is this batch sparging?

Nope.  Batch sparging would be adding the second water addition and running off immediately.  I don't really see the point of letting the second water addition sit for 30 min.

The point is to let more sugars dissolve out of the grain into the water. May not seem like it would help, but it really does.

But that's contrary to the theory of batch sparging.  And why wouldn't it be generally applicable to everyone?  Why don't I or others see efficiency oncreases from it?  I think you have another issue.
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Re: Double Boiling, Double Fermentation
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2012, 10:02:48 AM »
I find that collecting first runnings followed by putting in more water into the mash, mixing well, letting sit for another 30 or so minutes and collecting second runnings (mixing first and second, obviously) extracts way more out of the grain than fly sparging.

I think that there is additional conversion happening. Next time you do this you may want to record these numbers:

grist weight
mash water volume
gravity of well mixed wort that you ran off first. You can test that in the mash tun if you have a refractometer. When using a hydrometer make sure you cool the wort in a closed vessel to eliminate evaporation.

water volume added after run-off
gravity right after stirring in that water
gravity 30 min later.

Based on this we should be able to reconstruct what's happening.

Kai

Offline dimik

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Re: Double Boiling, Double Fermentation
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2012, 09:02:36 PM »
Beats me why you don't see efficiency increase. I can get up to 90% that way with a low grain brew like a bitter, while the regular way gives me ~65-70. 75-80% with bigger grain bills. Don't think it's conversion because I did a 2 hour mash once and it ran off at around 65%, while 60+30 min gives me considerably higher yield. Seems pretty logical to me...
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Offline denny

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Re: Double Boiling, Double Fermentation
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2012, 11:01:21 AM »
Beats me why you don't see efficiency increase. I can get up to 90% that way with a low grain brew like a bitter, while the regular way gives me ~65-70. 75-80% with bigger grain bills. Don't think it's conversion because I did a 2 hour mash once and it ran off at around 65%, while 60+30 min gives me considerably higher yield. Seems pretty logical to me...

Well, if it works for you it works, but I think you're misattributing the reason.
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Offline a10t2

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Re: Double Boiling, Double Fermentation
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2012, 12:17:26 PM »
Isn't it more or less common knowledge that a mash out can accelerate conversion? I know that when I incorporate one I can count on >95% conversion, whereas after a 60 min rest I've occasionally seen CE as low as ~85%.
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