Author Topic: Too much lactic acid?  (Read 3996 times)

Offline narvin

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Re: Too much lactic acid?
« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2013, 08:02:52 PM »
Eh, just kidding around.  The idea of bad homebrew poetry set to bongos is pretty funny, though.
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Offline beersk

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Re: Too much lactic acid?
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2013, 08:43:08 AM »
I never put lactic acid in the sparge water...Bru'n water is always telling me to.  I wonder if it'd make any difference.  It always says to add maybe 1.6mL at most.
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Offline mabrungard

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Re: Too much lactic acid?
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2013, 11:14:47 AM »
So, it sounds like you have about 100 ppm alkalinity and 5 gal of sparging water?  Adding the acid to the sparging water is a good idea in that it helps reduce that tannin extraction potential and it reduces the pH of the wort in the kettle slightly.  Both aspects could be an improvement if the sparging and wort pH have been too high in the past.  Its a small addition, it won't affect flavor and its good insurance.
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Offline blatz

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Re: Too much lactic acid?
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2013, 11:30:28 AM »
So, it sounds like you have about 100 ppm alkalinity and 5 gal of sparging water?  Adding the acid to the sparging water is a good idea in that it helps reduce that tannin extraction potential and it reduces the pH of the wort in the kettle slightly.  Both aspects could be an improvement if the sparging and wort pH have been too high in the past.  Its a small addition, it won't affect flavor and its good insurance.

what about if using RO water?  brun water doesn't prompt me to add any lactic.
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Offline narcout

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Re: Too much lactic acid?
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2013, 11:32:48 AM »
Is there any particular reason you all are using lactic acid over phosphoric?

In Brewing Better Beer, Gordon states phosphoric is the most flavor-neutral.  Maybe in small doses it doesn't really matter?




Offline beersk

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Re: Too much lactic acid?
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2013, 11:45:57 AM »
So, it sounds like you have about 100 ppm alkalinity and 5 gal of sparging water?  Adding the acid to the sparging water is a good idea in that it helps reduce that tannin extraction potential and it reduces the pH of the wort in the kettle slightly.  Both aspects could be an improvement if the sparging and wort pH have been too high in the past.  Its a small addition, it won't affect flavor and its good insurance.

what about if using RO water?  brun water doesn't prompt me to add any lactic.
I wonder this as well since I often use RO. It does prompt me to put it into the sparge water though.
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Offline mabrungard

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Re: Too much lactic acid?
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2013, 12:03:37 PM »
My philosophy regarding acidification is based on the alkalinity of the sparging water.  I feel that the alkalinity should be 25 ppm or less.  In the case of RO or distilled water use, its unnecessary to acidify those waters since they already have low alkalinity. 

For neutralizing water with modest alkalinity, lactic acid is fine.  You won't have to add enough to notice a flavor impact.  I know from experience, that 150 ppm alkalinity is still OK for lactic usage.  From studies I've seen, the flavor threshold for lactate ion is on the order of 400 ppm in beer (Malting and Brewing Science).  One mole of lactate ion will be delivered to the water for each mole of bicarbonate neutralized.  400 ppm bicarb = 328 ppm alkalinity.  So this suggests that there might still be a little room for using lactic acid on higher alkalinity waters, but I wouldn't recommend it.  I'd say that moving to phosphoric might be safer from a flavor perspective.  Another consideration is that the 400 ppm taste threshold represents the 'average' taster.  A super taster might pick it up at lower concentration.

PS: Beersk, it sounds like you still have the 100 ppm alkalinity in the Sparge Acidification page inputs.  If you put the alkalinity of RO water in that entry, it will report a much lower acid addition.  This was fixed in the supporter version of Bru'n Water.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2013, 12:06:34 PM by mabrungard »
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Offline denny

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Too much lactic acid?
« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2013, 12:12:34 PM »

I thought that the actual addition of any type of acid to a German lager was against the reinheitsghebot? I thought that is why they used acid malt???

Do pragmatist beatniks follow the R-hgbot?  Other than the hocus pocus, lactic acid should be the same.

In a word, NO!
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Offline denny

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Too much lactic acid?
« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2013, 12:14:27 PM »
So, it sounds like you have about 100 ppm alkalinity and 5 gal of sparging water?  Adding the acid to the sparging water is a good idea in that it helps reduce that tannin extraction potential and it reduces the pH of the wort in the kettle slightly.  Both aspects could be an improvement if the sparging and wort pH have been too high in the past.  Its a small addition, it won't affect flavor and its good insurance.

Good guesses, Martin.  Those are almost exactly what my parameters are.
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Offline denny

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Too much lactic acid?
« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2013, 12:16:02 PM »
Is there any particular reason you all are using lactic acid over phosphoric?

Because I've got lactic and not phosphoric.  I didn't really think there would be any taste impact from that amount, but I thought I'd ask.
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Offline yso191

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Re: Too much lactic acid?
« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2013, 12:34:43 PM »
OK, I give up...  How many ml in 5 gallons does it take to reach the taste threshold of 400 ppm?

Math was never my strong suit.

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Offline mabrungard

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Re: Too much lactic acid?
« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2013, 01:03:54 PM »
Looks like 6.5 mL of 88% lactic in 5 gallons is 400 ppm.  One thing to remember is that Malting and Brewing Science is quoting 400 ppm in beer.  So you would have to stay a bit lower that that concentration in the brewing water due to the concentrating effect of the boil.
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Offline yso191

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Re: Too much lactic acid?
« Reply #27 on: January 02, 2013, 01:07:42 PM »
Looks like 6.5 mL of 88% lactic in 5 gallons is 400 ppm.  One thing to remember is that Malting and Brewing Science is quoting 400 ppm in beer.  So you would have to stay a bit lower that that concentration in the brewing water due to the concentrating effect of the boil.

Thank you!
Steve