Author Topic: Soapy off flavor  (Read 6006 times)

Offline jeffy

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Re: Soapy off flavor
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2013, 03:46:55 PM »
When I have tasted the soapy flavor it is almost exactly like ivory liquid dish soap.  I have smelled and tasted strong autolysis before when I left some starter wort rest for several months and it is nothing like this.

That triggers it.  The soapy brew flavor I encountered in Avery IPA was as close to Ivory as anything.  The opportunity to do a very occasional Ivory tasting in childhood (bar soap, courtesy of my grandma) has me certain of that.

I know Ivory is perfumed/scented, but it has such a mild floral subtly many still associate with "pure" soap, in contrast to numerous heavy-handed, fake-smelling, modern soap scent formulations.
Wait, isn't ivory 99.44% pure?
Jeff Gladish, Tampa (989.3, 175.1 Apparent Rennarian)
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Offline tschmidlin

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Re: Soapy off flavor
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2013, 09:23:48 PM »
When I have tasted the soapy flavor it is almost exactly like ivory liquid dish soap.  I have smelled and tasted strong autolysis before when I left some starter wort rest for several months and it is nothing like this.

That triggers it.  The soapy brew flavor I encountered in Avery IPA was as close to Ivory as anything.  The opportunity to do a very occasional Ivory tasting in childhood (bar soap, courtesy of my grandma) has me certain of that.

I know Ivory is perfumed/scented, but it has such a mild floral subtly many still associate with "pure" soap, in contrast to numerous heavy-handed, fake-smelling, modern soap scent formulations.
Wait, isn't ivory 99.44% pure?
I've read that Ivory is scented with American wild ginger root, maybe that's the 0.56%?
Tom Schmidlin

Offline majorvices

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Soapy off flavor
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2013, 07:27:39 AM »
When I have tasted the soapy flavor it is almost exactly like ivory liquid dish soap.  I have smelled and tasted strong autolysis before when I left some starter wort rest for several months and it is nothing like this.

That triggers it.  The soapy brew flavor I encountered in Avery IPA was as close to Ivory as anything.  The opportunity to do a very occasional Ivory tasting in childhood (bar soap, courtesy of my grandma) has me certain of that.

I know Ivory is perfumed/scented, but it has such a mild floral subtly many still associate with "pure" soap, in contrast to numerous heavy-handed, fake-smelling, modern soap scent formulations.
Wait, isn't ivory 99.44% pure?
I've read that Ivory is scented with American wild ginger root, maybe that's the 0.56%?

Dude, you shoud be on Jeopardy or something. Just sayin'.
Keith Y.
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Offline jjflash

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Re: Soapy off flavor
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2013, 08:33:39 AM »
In one of my pro books I recall reading too high a final beer pH can produce a soapy flavor.
I don't recall the exact number but I believe something like >4.8

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Offline denny

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Re: Soapy off flavor
« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2013, 09:48:59 AM »
Dude, you shoud be on Jeopardy or something. Just sayin'.

Drew was a Jeopardy a few years ago.  I guess Tom's next!
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Offline bluesman

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Soapy off flavor
« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2013, 10:47:48 AM »
I've judged IPA's that had a soapy note to them. I generally attributed the "soapy" aroma/flavor to the intense hop character. This phenomenon seems to be exclusive to very hoppy beers. Perhaps the resinous characteristics and various oils present in hops will lend this "soapy" character when combined and saturated into the beer. This coupled with the calcium and sulfate levels in the beer may be working in harmony to produce this effect.
Ron Price

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Soapy off flavor
« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2013, 11:50:41 AM »
Dude, you shoud be on Jeopardy or something. Just sayin'.

Drew was a Jeopardy a few years ago.  I guess Tom's next!

Really??? That's just awesome!
Keith Y.
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Offline tschmidlin

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Re: Soapy off flavor
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2013, 12:48:38 PM »
Dude, you shoud be on Jeopardy or something. Just sayin'.

Drew was a Jeopardy a few years ago.  I guess Tom's next!

Really??? That's just awesome!
Yeah, I'll leave that to Drew.  :)
Tom Schmidlin

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Soapy off flavor
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2013, 02:19:02 PM »
Dude, you shoud be on Jeopardy or something. Just sayin'.

Drew was a Jeopardy a few years ago.  I guess Tom's next!

Really??? That's just awesome!
Yeah, I'll leave that to Drew.  :)

He's got the glamour shot going anyways. You kinda look like a hobo. No offense....
Keith Y.
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Offline denny

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Re: Soapy off flavor
« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2013, 03:38:35 PM »
He's got the glamour shot going anyways. You kinda look like a hobo. No offense....

That's the difference between LA and the PNW.
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Offline tschmidlin

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Re: Soapy off flavor
« Reply #40 on: January 13, 2013, 10:08:29 PM »
He's got the glamour shot going anyways. You kinda look like a hobo. No offense....

That's the difference between LA and the PNW.
Yeah, I'm PNW chic :)
Tom Schmidlin

Offline musseldoc

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Re: Soapy off flavor
« Reply #41 on: January 20, 2013, 07:58:23 AM »
Keith, did you try the blind taste test yet?  I am interested to know if it fixed the perfume character. 

One of the things about 'lipids' is that it is all encompassing for all types of oils, fat and waxes, and includes fatty acids, sterols (phytosterols), triyglcerides, cholesterol and some vitamins.  Basically, any generic compound that is (or partially) hydrophobic.  In yeast, it includes the membrane bound phospholipids and the intracellular vitamins, sterols and free fatty acids.  I imagine if you do a standard methanol:chloroform extra with hop pellets, they would test positive for 'lipids', as hops contain many hydrophobic compounds including oils, resins, sterols, alpha acids and beta acids.  I think the hop oils should generically fall into the category of lipids, but I am not sure about the extent to which AA and BA are classified organically.  I guess my point is that I think you can still get oxidation of lipids without yeast coughing up their guts.  Oxidation of isomerized AA, or the often neglected BA, could easily occur while we oxygenate our wort prior to fermentation, or any point downstream.  Additionally, no one discusses the 'plant' parts of hops which are loaded with phytoesterols (lipids) and consequently make their way into beer.  If Fix is correct, then the soapy (perfumy) character of oxidized lipids could be coming solely from the hops.
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Offline AmandaK

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Re: Soapy off flavor
« Reply #42 on: January 21, 2013, 11:15:04 AM »
Keith, did you try the blind taste test yet?  I am interested to know if it fixed the perfume character. 

One of the things about 'lipids' is that it is all encompassing for all types of oils, fat and waxes, and includes fatty acids, sterols (phytosterols), triyglcerides, cholesterol and some vitamins.  Basically, any generic compound that is (or partially) hydrophobic.  In yeast, it includes the membrane bound phospholipids and the intracellular vitamins, sterols and free fatty acids.  I imagine if you do a standard methanol:chloroform extra with hop pellets, they would test positive for 'lipids', as hops contain many hydrophobic compounds including oils, resins, sterols, alpha acids and beta acids.  I think the hop oils should generically fall into the category of lipids, but I am not sure about the extent to which AA and BA are classified organically.  I guess my point is that I think you can still get oxidation of lipids without yeast coughing up their guts.  Oxidation of isomerized AA, or the often neglected BA, could easily occur while we oxygenate our wort prior to fermentation, or any point downstream.  Additionally, no one discusses the 'plant' parts of hops which are loaded with phytoesterols (lipids) and consequently make their way into beer.  If Fix is correct, then the soapy (perfumy) character of oxidized lipids could be coming solely from the hops.

So... oxidation could be the cause of soapy IPAs? (Pardon my ignorance, I'm better with numbers/figures than 'organic technical speak', if you will.)
Amanda Kertz
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Offline tschmidlin

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Re: Soapy off flavor
« Reply #43 on: January 21, 2013, 10:19:01 PM »
One of the things about 'lipids' is that it is all encompassing for all types of oils, fat and waxes, and includes fatty acids, sterols (phytosterols), triyglcerides, cholesterol and some vitamins.  Basically, any generic compound that is (or partially) hydrophobic.
Many proteins are at least partially hydrophobic, and are not lipids.  Your first sentence is great ;)
Tom Schmidlin