Author Topic: German commercial breweries batch sparging?  (Read 1027 times)

Online denny

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German commercial breweries batch sparging?
« on: January 17, 2013, 09:34:50 AM »
I just discovered that the material I posted was proprietary.  I have deleted my post.  I apologize to the BA for posting it.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 03:54:46 PM by denny »
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: German commercial breweries batch sparging?
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2013, 11:01:27 AM »
BYO magazine also recently posted an article about a German lager where the step mash is performed by direct heating of the mash tun.  After several step-ups in temperature, they finally drain the sweet wort and then do a sort of triple batch sparge.  I'm describing this based on memory, but essentially what was described was that you wanted to get half your volume from the first runnings as normal, but then after that you split your sparge into three equal parts, adding a third and draining completely, then repeating this process two more times.  This process, also, sounded very much like batch sparging to me, with a twist in that they keep the mash very thick by only sparging a little bit at a time, three times.  But I bet it would accomplish pretty close to your conventional batch sparge.  This article, too, might have been written by Horst Dornbusch?  Sometimes I have a pretty good memory... other times, not so much.  But I just read the article about 10 days ago so I'm probably not too far off.

Thank you, Denny, for sharing.  Interesting seeing that the Germans are not as far off from the conventional wisdom of the rest of the world as some might believe.
Dave

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Offline Pawtucket Patriot

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Re: German commercial breweries batch sparging?
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2013, 03:46:42 PM »
That does sound an awful lot like batch sparging.  IIRC, Keith @ Yellowhammer is batch sparging.  Do you know of other commercial breweries in the U.S. who do? 
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Offline nateo

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Re: German commercial breweries batch sparging?
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2013, 09:22:59 PM »
A mash filter is totally the way cool guys do it.
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German commercial breweries batch sparging?
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2013, 06:13:14 AM »
That does sound an awful lot like batch sparging.  IIRC, Keith @ Yellowhammer is batch sparging.  Do you know of other commercial breweries in the U.S. who do?

Not on the 15 bbl system I'm not.
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Re: German commercial breweries batch sparging?
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2013, 07:16:46 AM »
Ok.  Would it even be possible on the 15bbl system?
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Offline anthony

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Re: German commercial breweries batch sparging?
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2013, 07:56:28 AM »
Its certainly possible but the efficiency hit adds up depending on your system size. And again depending on your system and if you have rakes or not, I would think all that stirring might get old too.

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German commercial breweries batch sparging?
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2013, 09:05:07 AM »
I don't think there is a huge efficiency hit. I think that is a myth. The only limitation is the size of the MT. My MT has a motorized paddle so stirring would not be an issue. On lower gravity beers it would be possible for us to batch sparge and I have thought about it to save time but haven't.
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German commercial breweries batch sparging?
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2013, 10:30:54 AM »
I remember another brewer who went pro telling us a few years ago that he was touring Miller and they were filling and draining the MT as fast as they could and that he said it looked like batch sparging.
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Offline anthony

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Re: German commercial breweries batch sparging?
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2013, 10:56:51 AM »
I don't think there is a huge efficiency hit. I think that is a myth. The only limitation is the size of the MT. My MT has a motorized paddle so stirring would not be an issue. On lower gravity beers it would be possible for us to batch sparge and I have thought about it to save time but haven't.

I think that all things being equal, if you simply change from continuous sparging to batch sparging, you will see an efficiency hit. That isn't to say you can't redial in the system to get the same or maybe even better efficiency than you were getting.

There is also no doubt in my mind that for the same amount of sparge water used, continuous sparging will yield a higher lauter efficiency than batch sparging. Again, that isn't to say you can't adjust to compensate though.

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Re: German commercial breweries batch sparging?
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2013, 11:28:36 AM »
I think that all things being equal, if you simply change from continuous sparging to batch sparging, you will see an efficiency hit. That isn't to say you can't redial in the system to get the same or maybe even better efficiency than you were getting.

There is also no doubt in my mind that for the same amount of sparge water used, continuous sparging will yield a higher lauter efficiency than batch sparging. Again, that isn't to say you can't adjust to compensate though.

Are these just gut feelings or do you have some data to support that?
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Offline nateo

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Re: German commercial breweries batch sparging?
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2013, 12:15:52 PM »
Are these just gut feelings or do you have some data to support that?

C'mon Denny, this is the Internet. Data is not required to form opinions.
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Offline anthony

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Re: German commercial breweries batch sparging?
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2013, 12:23:50 PM »
Are these just gut feelings or do you have some data to support that?

I think Kai Troester's experiments and data support that.

Offline nateo

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Re: German commercial breweries batch sparging?
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2013, 01:10:21 PM »
I've seen some pro brewers say batch sparging is less efficient on their system. I've seen other pro brewers say it makes no difference on their system. Since all brewers don't use the exact same system, it probably depends more on the equipment than the method. For instance: mash filters batch sparge, and they get 98%+ efficiency.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2013, 01:25:46 PM by nateo »
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Re: German commercial breweries batch sparging?
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2013, 02:13:35 PM »
Are these just gut feelings or do you have some data to support that?

Mathematically, it makes sense. Increasing the number of batches in a batch-sparging regime increases efficiency, and fly-sparging is essentially just batch-sparging with an infinite number of batches.

Depending on the liquor-to-grist ratio and the number of batches, the difference could be anywhere from 1-5%.
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