[dmtaylor]

I am normally an all-grain brewer, but at the request of a friend, recently I came up with an extract/mini-mash recipe for Bud Light.  And then I was thinking, I might actually want to give this recipe a try in my own house, as it is just crazy enough that it might actually work.  And I want this beer to be as dry as possible, no residual sweetness to speak of, just like the real Bud Light.  All distilled water would be used, maybe even a little acid to help bring the mash pH down.  However, I also know that the various extracts in the market today have different attenuability depending on which manufacturer, i.e., some extracts won't ferment down below 1.018, no matter what you do or how much simple sugar or adjuncts you add or whatever.  But.... what if it were possible to level this playing field?  What if you could use ANY manufacturer's extract and still get reasonably consistent results in regards to high attenuation (goal would be 1.010 or less).  Since this is a mini-mash beer, what would happen if you used the following process?:

1) Steep a pound of crushed 6-row malt in a bag (mini-BIAB) in about 3 quarts of water at 147 F for 75 minutes.
2) Pull the bag out, but while the enzymes are still active, add all your extract, ensure it is all dissolved, and also let THAT sit at 147 F for another ~20 minutes.  A small amount of heat will need to be added to bring temperature up, but since there's only 3 quarts of sweet wort at this point, this is not difficult at all.
3) After "mashing" the extract for ~20 minutes using the dissolved enzymes from the grain, add all the rest of your brewing water (total of 6 gallons), bring up to a boil, and brew as normal (5 gallon recipe).

The theory is that the high enzymatic content of the 6-row will be plenty to break down any complex sugars that may be in the extract -- you could extend the extract "mash" to an hour or more if you wanted the beer to be as dry as possible, but my guess is 20 minutes would suffice.  Then add your water and brew as normal.

I have a feeling this will work, and I kind of want to try it.  What do the other all-grain mashing experts think?  Has anyone else tried anything similar to this process before?  How did it turn out??

[tygo]

I did this with a partial mash pilsner that i have lagering right now. It finished at 1.010. I don't know where i would have ended up if i hadn't done it though.

[davidgzach]

I thought the process of making the DME or LME denatured all of the enzymes.  Am I mistaken on this?

Dave 

[hopfenundmalz]

I thought the process of making the DME or LME denatured all of the enzymes.  Am I mistaken on this?

Dave

I think you are correct. But adding the extract to the mini-mash has potential to dry out the beer.

[davidgzach]

I thought the process of making the DME or LME denatured all of the enzymes.  Am I mistaken on this?

Dave

I think you are correct. But adding the extract to the mini-mash has potential to dry out the beer.

OK, I get it now!     Thanks Jeff.

[denny]

I recall reading about that technique years back on HBD, Dave.  I was skeptical, but reports from people who tried it were that apparently the enzymes in the grain really did increase the fermentability of the extract.

[davidgzach]

In thinking about this, if there are complex sugars in the extract (Maltriose) and you put the extract in the mash, then the Alpha Enzymes from the mash will further break down the complex sugars.  That does make sense, right?

Dave

[jackhorzempa]

If you are looking for a dry beer I would highly recommend that you use Briess Pilsen DME. That extract is extremely fermentable! I don’t think you will even need to employ your mashing technique if you use this extract. Last spring I brewed a Bitter Ale with Briess Pilsen DME and ½ lb. of British Crystal Malt (and Wyeast 1469). The OG was 1.050 and the FG was 1.006.

Cheers!

[anje]

Seems to me that this would be one time it might be worth it to try Beano. Or would it be too watery even for a light beer clone?

[dmtaylor]

Ugh... the Beano idea just won't die.

Don't ever use Beano.  NEVER.  You will be sorry if you do.  You have been warned.

[morticaixavier]

Ugh... the Beano idea just won't die.

Don't ever use Beano.  NEVER.  You will be sorry if you do.  You have been warned.

I think one could use beano to increase the fermentability of the wort but it would have to be before the boil. boiling will denature the beano so it WILL finally die.

But that being said, I agree wholeheartedly. don't use it.

[fugglupagus]

. . . . .  However, I also know that the various extracts in the market today have different attenuability depending on which manufacturer, i.e., some extracts won't ferment down below 1.018, no matter what you do or how much simple sugar or adjuncts you add or whatever. . . . . .

I'm not sure I get that part.  I know there used to be extract brands like Laaglander that were significantly less fermentable than others.  But I haven't come accross anything like Laaglander, or any extract that would finish at or near 1.018 if the beer didn't start above 1.076.  I find extracts from Briess, Muntons, and a bunch of the online supply houses to predictably fermentable.  Have you had fermentability issues with specific brands of extracts?

[dmtaylor]

I don't brew much with extract anymore -- my experience with extract is from about 10 years ago.  It's possible that extracts are made more fermentable these days.  It is also possible that you have been lucky with your selections and I was not so lucky with mine.  I know I used to use a lot of John Bull, and that stuff wouldn't ferment for nothing.  Maybe get down to 1.020 if I was lucky.  Maybe these days it's not such an issue.  I guess I really don't know.

[denny]

Ugh... the Beano idea just won't die.

Don't ever use Beano.  NEVER.  You will be sorry if you do.  You have been warned.

I wouldn't go quite as far as NEVER, but I would say avoid it as a "fixer".  I've had fairly good results the couple times I tried designing it into an appropriate recipe.  But those were as experiments.  In general, Beano has no place in my brewing.

[fugglupagus]

I don't brew much with extract anymore -- my experience with extract is from about 10 years ago.  It's possible that extracts are made more fermentable these days.  It is also possible that you have been lucky with your selections and I was not so lucky with mine.  I know I used to use a lot of John Bull, and that stuff wouldn't ferment for nothing.  Maybe get down to 1.020 if I was lucky.  Maybe these days it's not such an issue.  I guess I really don't know.

I think John Bull was another brand that fit in the less fermentable class.  Like Laaglander, it’s also extinct.  I also think extract is like a lot of other brewing ingredients, that they now come in more varieties and with higher quality than they did 10 years ago.  Dunno, my experience doesn’t go back 10 yrs.  Maybe I have been lucky.  But I do spread my ingredient purchasing around quite a bit, so I’m feeling luckier than maybe I should be.