Author Topic: Whirlpool "Strength"  (Read 1049 times)

Online blatz

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Whirlpool "Strength"
« on: January 25, 2013, 09:52:16 AM »
Hey guys

Am still perfecting my whirlpool.  I installed a whirlpool arm in my kettle and while on the last brew session it worked well, it formed more of a 'pancake' than a 'cone' in the middle.

But I was thinking maybe the pressure of the return is not enough?  Currently, I am pumping (with a high flow March 809 pump) from the kettle, then through 2 Chillzilla counterflow chillers and then back to the whirlpool arm.

Would it behoove me to not pump through the 2 Chillzillas during the whirlpooling?  Would that make it faster?  It seems like it would, but how much I don't know.

Thoughts?
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Offline tschmidlin

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Re: Whirlpool "Strength"
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2013, 10:12:20 AM »
Would it behoove me to not pump through the 2 Chillzillas during the whirlpooling?  Would that make it faster?  It seems like it would, but how much I don't know.

Thoughts?
Bypassing the chillers will make it go faster, but I don't know how much either.  I run it through the chiller anyway, that's part of my sanitizing schedule.  I don't use quick connects though, so some of that is laziness from not wanting to move hoses around (they're all tri-clamps).
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Re: Whirlpool "Strength"
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2013, 10:43:54 AM »
Do you get a visible whirlpool?  When I do a manual whirlpool I stir it with my mash paddle until there is a visible whirlpool and then stop and give it 15 minutes or so to settle out.  It gives me a nice cone on the bottom.

The Chillzilla's will certainly decrease your pressure.
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Offline tschmidlin

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Re: Whirlpool "Strength"
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2013, 11:09:40 AM »
I don't get a visible whirlppol (March 809 through a therminator in to the kettle with ~75 gallons of wort, 1 inch hoses).  I've started stirring the hot wort with a paddle to get a whirlpool going and then turning on the pump.
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Online blatz

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Re: Whirlpool "Strength"
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2013, 11:38:29 AM »
Do you get a visible whirlpool?  When I do a manual whirlpool I stir it with my mash paddle until there is a visible whirlpool and then stop and give it 15 minutes or so to settle out.  It gives me a nice cone on the bottom.

The Chillzilla's will certainly decrease your pressure.

yes - the whirlpool arm is installed at about the halfway mark of the wort and I definitely see the counter clockwise motion of the wort.

perhaps I need to stop pumping and let it rest longer (I did about 5 min last time).  do you think the increased pressure would cause a 'better' cone to form if I were to bypass the chillers during the whirlpool?
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Offline a10t2

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Re: Whirlpool "Strength"
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2013, 12:27:33 PM »
perhaps I need to stop pumping and let it rest longer (I did about 5 min last time).  do you think the increased pressure would cause a 'better' cone to form if I were to bypass the chillers during the whirlpool?

I would definitely rest longer. I recently started waiting 15 min because 10 wasn't enough.

I think you'll be fine leaving the chillers in the loop, and you probably want them there for sanitation reasons anyway. I have a similar setup (one 25 ft CFC, non-high flow 809) and I'm happy with the results I get running the pump wide open for 15 min, then resting 15 min.
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Re: Whirlpool "Strength"
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2013, 12:33:06 PM »
The fact that the cone forms during the rest afterwards tells me that pumping strength is not much of an issue. The trub is settling out when the wort is moving slowly. In fact, I'd guess too much flow will keep particles suspended. I stir with a large spoon for a couple minutes and let it rest for ~15. 
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Online blatz

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Re: Whirlpool "Strength"
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2013, 12:35:06 PM »
cool - i will try a longer rest next time.  thanks fellas.
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Offline troybinso

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Re: Whirlpool "Strength"
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2013, 05:40:19 PM »
I think you are much better off with a short whirlpool and a longer rest. If you are getting things moving around in a circle, that is pretty much all you need. Things don't start to settle down to the bottom until you stop the pump.

Offline mabrungard

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Re: Whirlpool "Strength"
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2013, 05:00:14 AM »
The steepness of the coned material in the center of the kettle is dependent upon the 'shear strength' of the material.  In the case of the ground hop matter in pelletized hops, the shear strength is nearly zero since that cone is composed of hydrated proteins and vegetative materials.  Essentially, its goose crap. 

If you use whole hops, then the cone can take on more shape because there is mechanical, 'particle to particle' contact between the individual hop cones.  That mechanical contact increases the shear strength of the mass and allows it to 'cone' better.  One of my old brewing buddies pointed out that a good technique for improving the coning of the hops and trub was to include at least a small proportion of whole or plug hops in the hop bill to provide that strength to hold the cone together.  I prefer pellet hops, but using 100% pellets hops will leave you with a 'flatter' cone nearly every time.
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Online AmandaK

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Re: Whirlpool "Strength"
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2013, 07:31:02 AM »
The steepness of the coned material in the center of the kettle is dependent upon the 'shear strength' of the material.  In the case of the ground hop matter in pelletized hops, the shear strength is nearly zero since that cone is composed of hydrated proteins and vegetative materials.  Essentially, its goose crap. 

If you use whole hops, then the cone can take on more shape because there is mechanical, 'particle to particle' contact between the individual hop cones.  That mechanical contact increases the shear strength of the mass and allows it to 'cone' better.  One of my old brewing buddies pointed out that a good technique for improving the coning of the hops and trub was to include at least a small proportion of whole or plug hops in the hop bill to provide that strength to hold the cone together.  I prefer pellet hops, but using 100% pellets hops will leave you with a 'flatter' cone nearly every time.

SCIENCE!  :)

I love Martin's posts, as a side note. "Essentially, its goose crap." <-LOL
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Re: Whirlpool "Strength"
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2013, 08:02:10 AM »
Another thing to keep in mind is that it's hard to get a great cone in a flat-bottomed vessel. There's just a limit to how much you can fight gravity.
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