Author Topic: is my theory sound?  (Read 2996 times)

Offline andrew000141

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is my theory sound?
« on: January 28, 2013, 09:55:12 PM »
im 3 AG batches deep and my beers have been very watery unfortunately. The second one i mashed at 155 and i still got a FG of 1.007 (og 15 brix). I have been batch sparging w/o mashout. im wondering if not mashing out is the culprit as the grains temp lowers as i recirculate and sparge possibly converting the higher sugars and dextrins to light sugars while doing so. could this be the issue?
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Cherry melomel

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Offline tschmidlin

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Re: is my theory sound?
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2013, 10:17:02 PM »
Maybe - we need more info, like recipes (lbs of grain at least) and OGs.
Tom Schmidlin

Offline redbeerman

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Re: is my theory sound?
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2013, 05:36:14 AM »
How long is the mash and is the temperature maintained throughout.  If the mash temps are decreasing to 150ish for an extended period of time, that will increase the fermentability of the wort as well.  As Tom said, need more info.
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Offline jeffy

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Re: is my theory sound?
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2013, 05:40:29 AM »
  If the mash temps are decreasing to 150ish for an extended period of time, that will increase the fermentability of the wort as well.
Red, I don't think it works that way, as the beta amylase enzymes are denatured already from the higher temp mash in.
As you both said, need more recipe info.
Jeff Gladish, Tampa (989.3, 175.1 Apparent Rennarian)
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Online mtnrockhopper

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Re: is my theory sound?
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2013, 06:20:20 AM »
My first thought was that your thermometer might be off. I used to use a probe-style oven thermometer and so did my friend (different brand). Neither was calibrated. One day we were brewing together and my thermometer was reading 10 degrees higher than his!  That could put your mash in the 140s.
 
But as said, we really need more info. I batch sparge without a mashout though, so I can tell you that alone is not the problem.
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Offline erockrph

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Re: is my theory sound?
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2013, 06:55:59 AM »
Have you been hitting your target OG? How are you measuring your gravities - is your hydrometer accurate? If these are your first few AG batches, maybe you aren't hitting your target efficiency. If you're starting low, then that would explain why you're finishing low.
Eric B.

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Offline redbeerman

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Re: is my theory sound?
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2013, 06:57:10 AM »
  If the mash temps are decreasing to 150ish for an extended period of time, that will increase the fermentability of the wort as well.
Red, I don't think it works that way, as the beta amylase enzymes are denatured already from the higher temp mash in.
As you both said, need more recipe info.

Jeff.  The beta amylase enzymes will not be comepletely denatured at 155F.  They will work in tandem with alpha amylase to further break down starch molecules. "The optimal pH range for beta amylase between 5.4 and 5.6 and the optimal temperature range is between 140ºF (60ºC) and 150ºF (65ºC). Above 160ºF (70ºC) beta amylase is quickly deactivated [Narziss, 2005]. "
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 06:59:36 AM by redbeerman »
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Offline majorvices

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is my theory sound?
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2013, 08:10:09 AM »
i don't think the higher mash temps denature the enzymes immediately. And I don't think mash out tmeps are really necessary in homebrewing, unless you are performing a 3 hour mash. The temp drop could be a problem, one easily rectifiable by adding a gallon or so or boiling water mid way through.

Interestingly enough, "thin beer" is a common complaint to those new to AG brewing. I wonder how often it is that they are used to heavy and underattenuated extract brewing. That said, 1.007 is pretty darn low. But are you sure you hydrometer is calibrated correctly? Are you sure your thermometers are calibrated correctly?
Keith Y.
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Offline topher.bartos

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Re: is my theory sound?
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2013, 08:50:20 AM »
Like everybody else said, 155° shouldn't really give you thin / watery beer. If you are attenuating down to 1007, you are probably mashing at perhaps very low gravities. 155° mash will create less fermentable sugars and more dextrins, etc. 1007 is super low for such a mash temp but this all depends on OG.

Like everybody else said, you are either mis-calculating the temp or mashing lower gravities than you think you are. Your mash efficiency might be the problem so many increase your grains to account for that if you truly believe your temps are correct...

Other than that, I'm not sure what else it could be. Recipes, pH, OG might give us a better understanding of the problem.
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Offline davidgzach

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Re: is my theory sound?
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2013, 08:54:05 AM »
Interestingly enough, "thin beer" is a common complaint to those new to AG brewing. I wonder how often it is that they are used to heavy and underattenuated extract brewing.

Interesting observation. 

I agree with the others.  Need more info on grain bill, etc. and double check your equipment.

Dave
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Offline andrew000141

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Re: is my theory sound?
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2013, 09:12:54 AM »
my 3 grists have been (3 gal batches)

5lb belgian 2-row
1/2lb belgian biscuit
1/2lb belgian aromatic
1/4lb special b
mash =155
14 brix Og
Fg 1.007(there was 1/2lb of sugar but i still thought it should be higher than that)

5.7lb british 2-row malt
9.6oz c-60
2.4oz-chocolate
.9oz-black
mash = 151(90 min)
OG 1.071
FG 1.012(but seems very watery still)

im not going to bother on the 3rd recipe because it ended up a disaster to my fault not this issue and there no need to embarrass myself with posting it

i though about the thermometer calibration and im definitely gonna look into it.
i know my hydrometer is accurate, i always have 2 and they say the same gravity.

now i do have a 10gal rubbermaid cooler as my mash tun but ive been "preheating" it with so just about boiling water before i put the strike water in so the temps have been stable throughout the mash
Fermenting:
Cherry melomel

In Kegs:
Saison
Irish Red
Thanksgiving Cider
Rye Pale Ale
IIPA
Ayinger Maibock clone
Moose drool clone

Bottles:
Mead

Keep your nose out of trouble and no trouble will come to you

Offline topher.bartos

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Re: is my theory sound?
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2013, 09:40:27 AM »
I don't really see anything wrong with your setup or your gravities.

There are ways to increase mouthfeel. Dextrin Malt, Crystal malt, Flaked barley, Oats, etc...

You're getting about 83 - 87% attenuation. Your yeast seems to be eating through enough of your sugar to be giving a dry or light mouthfeel. Maybe try some not so high attenuating yeast...

You might be using too much refining agents that are dropping too much protein out of suspension...

There are all kinds of different factors.

Let me know if something or anything works for you.
In the works: Belgian Dark ("The Sloth"), Nugget Nectar Clone, Experimental IPA for NHC

Primary #1: Alchemy Hour Double IPA Clone

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Bottles: Summer Ale

Offline repo

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Re: is my theory sound?
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2013, 09:52:15 AM »
Well when I batch sparge, it always RAISES the temp of the grain bed during this process. What is the temp of your sparge water? I would be inclined to agree with major and his theory.

Qiuckly looking at your recipe there is something wrong. An og of 1.071 for a 3 gallon batch with less than 7# of grain seems highly implausible if not impoossible.

Offline topher.bartos

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Re: is my theory sound?
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2013, 09:58:00 AM »
Qiuckly looking at your recipe there is something wrong. An og of 1.071 for a 3 gallon batch with less than 7# of grain seems highly implausible if not impoossible.

+1 good catch!
In the works: Belgian Dark ("The Sloth"), Nugget Nectar Clone, Experimental IPA for NHC

Primary #1: Alchemy Hour Double IPA Clone

Primary #2: Mosaic IPA SMASH

Bottles: Summer Ale

Online mtnrockhopper

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Re: is my theory sound?
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2013, 12:18:37 PM »
Interestingly enough, "thin beer" is a common complaint to those new to AG brewing. I wonder how often it is that they are used to heavy and underattenuated extract brewing.

Very good point - And I've been wondering lately how much of that is due to simultaneously adopting better yeast practices vs simply the switch to all grain.
Jimmy K

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