Author Topic: A New Mash Chemistry and Brewing Water Calculator  (Read 3691 times)

Offline Kaiser

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A New Mash Chemistry and Brewing Water Calculator
« on: January 30, 2013, 06:18:51 AM »
When I started helping Brewer’s Friend as a technical adviser I couldn’t help but notice that the mash pH predicted by its brewing water calculator was way off. Since I have done extensive work on brewing water and mash chemistry already I took this as an opportunity to develop a new Mash Chemistry and Brewing Water Calculator from scratch. The goal was to build something that provides a simple and intuitive user interface yet implements the underlying chemistry to at a level of accuracy that is generally not done in brewing water calculators. In fact the only calculator that goes to that extent is A.J deLange’s NUBWS (Nearly Universal Brewing Water Spreadsheet).

Since Brewer’s Friend is an online recipe calculator the new calculator would also become an online tool. This worked very well in its favor since it is very cumbersome to model complex systems in spreadsheets. PHP, or any other programming language for that matter, makes that type of modeling much easier. In addition to that modern web browser technology makes it simple to create dynamic forms that can readily adjust the form to only asking the user for information that is actually needed based on the context.

That was 3 months ago and after many long nights of coding, re-coding, testing and even running more mash pH experiments version 1.0 has finally been released and is available on Brewer’s Friend.

When you first open the calculator it presents itself like any other basic water with sections for source water, salt additions, grist, mash pH and final water report following this flow chart:



Flow chart for basic use of the calculator
But that’s not all. For those who need want to do more complex water treatment calculations, the full flow chart looks more like this:




The first release features makes these features available:

  • Blending of two water sources
  • Bicarbonate/carbonate content can be set from either alkalinity or bicarbonate. pH can also be entered for increased accuracy
  • Electrical balance (ion balance) of the source water
  • Simple GH&KH measurements can be used as a crude way of specifying the source water.
  • Report of basic and advanced water parameters of the source water. Among the advanced properties are temporary/permanent hardness and CO2 partial pressure
  • supports all major salts (including magnesium chloride) as well as the hydroxides slaked lime and lye
  • Alkalinity reduction through boiling and slaked lime. These are features that rely on a more accurate implementation of the water’s carbo system
  • Wide range of supported acids including the less commonly used citric, tartaric and acetic acid.
  • Salt and acid additions can be made to all water or only the strike (mash) water
  • A different water source can be used for sparge water. In most cases that might be reverse osmosis water when the tap water is suitable for mashing.
  • Salt additions to sparge water or kettle
  • Sparge water acidification with a wide range of acids.
  • Detailed report of the treated mash water
  • Support for undissolved chalk.
  • Grist pH properties can be estimated from beer color or malt bill
  • Mash pH prediction based on balancing the various weak and strong acid systems that might be present (carbo system, weak acids and grist)
  • overall water report based on the mash and sparge water profile
  • target water comparison of the overall water report

For now this tool is only available as a stand-alone calculator but Brewer’s Friend is planning to integrate it into the recipe editor. This will eliminate duplicate entry of the beer’s malt bill. It will also allow the user to use saved source water profile(s).

Go ahead and give it a try. If you have feedback, positive or negative, please let me know:


http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator

In subsequent posts I’m planning to write more about some of the discoveries I made while writing this tool and how it’s mash pH prediction does compared to actual mash pH data that I have.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 06:59:12 AM by Kaiser »

Offline yso191

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Re: A New Mash Chemistry and Brewing Water Calculator
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2013, 11:39:13 AM »
Kai,

Is there a way to calculate for RO or distilled water?
Steve
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Offline kramerog

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Re: A New Mash Chemistry and Brewing Water Calculator
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2013, 12:08:25 PM »
When the recipe editor becomes integrated with the brewing water calculator, I'll give this a try.
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Offline Kaiser

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Re: A New Mash Chemistry and Brewing Water Calculator
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2013, 12:33:25 PM »
Is there a way to calculate for RO or distilled water?

Leaving the source water fields empty should do.

Kai

Offline gandelf

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Re: A New Mash Chemistry and Brewing Water Calculator
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2013, 08:32:45 AM »
First, thanks Kai for your support and effort for the homebrew community. Before trying Martin's spreadsheet when it became available; I tried most of the popular water calculators with  mixed results. Would you consider elaborating on the contrasts between you're calculator and Martin's?

In the past, I have done some side by side 2.5 gallon batches; where the only difference was the "seasoning" of the water by different calculators. So far, Martin's calculator has been the most reliable for ME.

For reference, I live in NE Wisconsin and have a 125' well, with 83' of it in red granite. So, if I make a low SRM beer and not adjust the water, it's taking a one way trip to the back yard.
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Offline kramerog

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Re: A New Mash Chemistry and Brewing Water Calculator
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2013, 09:13:25 AM »
When I looked briefly at the calculator earlier this week, it appeared to have a mash pH estimation option based on the same premises as Bru'n water.  These mash pH calcs are based like Bru'n water on the grain bill, color contributions of the malts and type of malts (base, caramel, roasted, acidulated).  I would be surprised if Bru'n water and Kai's calculator at this time provide different significantly different results.

Ease of use could be a difference maker here.
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Offline Kaiser

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Re: A New Mash Chemistry and Brewing Water Calculator
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2013, 08:55:32 AM »
We just released version 1.3 which has a few notable enhancements:

- option to show overall water and mash pH at the bottom of each section. That will reduce the scrolling needed when you try to match a profile or mash pH.
- support for CRS/AMS, which is a HCL/H2SO4 mix used by our UK brewing friends
- support for malt pH parameter entry as DI water pH or acdidity in mEq/kg. That's for folks who know these parameters.

We are working hard on the integration into the recipe editor but want this to work well and intuitively. That's why its taking its time.

Kai

Offline lukaszr

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Re: A New Mash Chemistry and Brewing Water Calculator
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2015, 12:06:53 AM »
Hi Kai,
 
I use very often Mash Chemistry and Brewing Water Calculator because I have a reverse osmosis filter so I use this calculator in my home brewery. On forum piwo.org I'm a some kind of support for people which try to start with modification of water.
 
I decided to write to you because I have a problem with one thing (not only me - everyone who use a RO filter).
 
I dont know excactly what should I put in Source Water fields when I use a RO water. I used to put "1" everywhere (including Bicarbonate and pH) - I am not sure if it is a good way. The biggest problem are fields: Bicarbonate and pH. This parameters discriminate all problems with Mash pH. I tried to put differents values (f.ex. Bicarbonate=1 and pH=5 or 7) and calculates were ok but ... the MASH PH never be correct. pH is always lower then calculator shows. Sometimes pH in real is very low (I have good pHmeter and I am sure that it mesures good - I have 2 samples: 4 and 7).
 
For example - please look at this profile:
http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/?id=R8DXXS0
 
Calculator says: Mash pH *: 5.95 but pHmeter mesured: 5.22
 
Next example:
http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/?id=PVJX87J
 
Calculator says: Mash pH *: 5.64 but pHmeter mesured: 5.15
 
Next example:
http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/?id=2XMK3JP
 
Calculator says: Mash pH *: 5.72 but pHmeter mesured: 5.25
 
Next example:
http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/?id=DXC1BXQ
 
Calculator says: Mash pH *: 5.7 but pHmeter mesured: 4,99
 
On the beginnig differences werent so high (f.ex. 0,3-0,4pH) but lately ... is very high: sometimes it is 0,7-0,8pH. It is very difficult to set all minerals because I dont know what is going on.
 
My equipment didnt change. I borrow from my friend a pHmetr because I thought that there is something wrong with mine but this second one showed almost the same results.
 
My friends use RO water too and have the same problems.
 
Can you please look at it and help us with this problems: what put in Source water fields when we use a RO water and what is going on with calculates of Mash pH.
 
Be very grateful for any help
 
Best regards
Lucas
 

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Re: A New Mash Chemistry and Brewing Water Calculator
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2015, 05:10:25 AM »
Sadly, Kai is gone. We are TRYING to carry on and keep the knowledge flowing. Head on over forum.germanbrewing.net, and we will get you squared away.

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: A New Mash Chemistry and Brewing Water Calculator
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2015, 05:14:20 AM »
Gone?  You mean, like, gone from this Earth??????
Dave

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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: A New Mash Chemistry and Brewing Water Calculator
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2015, 05:29:48 AM »
Gone?  You mean, like, gone from this Earth??????
No, just not around this forum much. His profile says he checked in back in August, 2015.
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Offline Steve in TX

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A New Mash Chemistry and Brewing Water Calculator
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2015, 05:47:14 AM »
Sadly, Kai is gone. We are TRYING to carry on and keep the knowledge flowing. Head on over forum.germanbrewing.net, and we will get you squared away.
I don't think, "head to my new forum is an answer"

To the op with the issues. You should be able to get by using all zeroes as RO water should be very low in minerals. Have you tested your water with a TDS meter both before and after the RO system? Maybe your membrane is wearing out.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2015, 06:04:40 AM by Steve in TX »

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Re: A New Mash Chemistry and Brewing Water Calculator
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2015, 09:20:22 AM »
Gone?  You mean, like, gone from this Earth??????

I had an email exchange with him a year or so ago.  He's very busy with job and family.  I don't know if he even still  brews any longer.  I got the impression that he'd become disillusioned with the homebrew world.
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Offline beersk

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Re: A New Mash Chemistry and Brewing Water Calculator
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2015, 11:06:53 AM »
Gone?  You mean, like, gone from this Earth??????

I had an email exchange with him a year or so ago.  He's very busy with job and family.  I don't know if he even still  brews any longer.  I got the impression that he'd become disillusioned with the homebrew world.
Aww, see this is sad. Do you think he got frustrated with trying to replicate the German beer flava flave and gave up? Or just didn't like the attitudes in the homebrewing community?
Personally, I don't think the elusive German beer flavor is attainable. But I still strive to make the cleanest lagers possible in the German style.
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Offline denny

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Re: A New Mash Chemistry and Brewing Water Calculator
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2015, 11:46:19 AM »
Gone?  You mean, like, gone from this Earth??????

I had an email exchange with him a year or so ago.  He's very busy with job and family.  I don't know if he even still  brews any longer.  I got the impression that he'd become disillusioned with the homebrew world.
Aww, see this is sad. Do you think he got frustrated with trying to replicate the German beer flava flave and gave up? Or just didn't like the attitudes in the homebrewing community?
Personally, I don't think the elusive German beer flavor is attainable. But I still strive to make the cleanest lagers possible in the German style.

I have no idea and don't know enough to guess.  Just kinda his general attitude gave me that impression.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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