Author Topic: First Wort Hopping question  (Read 3007 times)

Offline imperialstout

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 43
    • View Profile
First Wort Hopping question
« on: February 03, 2013, 03:55:46 PM »
Maybe it is just me but I find the directions to doing FWH a little confusing. Got this brew tip the other day that reads in part:

FWH involves adding a portion of the hops to the boiler at the very beginning of the sparging process, allowing these hops to steep as the sparging completes and remaining in the kettle throughout the boil. Add the hops to the boiler as soon as you have finished recirculating the first runnings.

My guess is 30% of your flavour and aroma hops is added to the wort in the brew pot you just collected from draining the mash tun the first time, letting them steep while the grain in the mash tun is then sparged, about a half hour.

Anyone use FWH? How did it work for you?

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 11643
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • View Profile
    • Dennybrew
First Wort Hopping question
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2013, 04:22:39 PM »
I use FWH in most of my beers, from APA/AIPA to pils and even tripels. 
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 11643
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • View Profile
    • Dennybrew
First Wort Hopping question
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2013, 04:24:59 PM »
I use FWH in most of my beers, from APA/AIPA to pils and even tripels.

It gives me a nice hop flavor and adds a bit of smooth bitterness.  I start by deciding how much hop flavor I want, then adding the appropriate amount of FWH....usually 1-2 oz.  I count the bitterness from them as a 20 min. addition.  After having some beers analyzed, that seems like a pretty accurate guess.  Then I add enough hops at 60 to get the bitterness I'm going for.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 11643
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • View Profile
    • Dennybrew
First Wort Hopping question
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2013, 04:27:15 PM »
I use FWH in most of my beers, from APA/AIPA to pils and even tripels.

It gives me a nice hop flavor and adds a bit of smooth bitterness.  I start by deciding how much hop flavor I want, then adding the appropriate amount of FWH....usually 1-2 oz.  I count the bitterness from them as a 20 min. addition.  After having some beers analyzed, that seems like a pretty accurate guess.  Then I add enough hops at 60 to get the bitterness I'm going for.

Damn, no way to edit posts with TapaTalk.....

I put them in the kettle before I start my initial runoff and they stay in through the boil.  Since I batch sparge, it's about 15 min. from the time I start the mash runoff til the time I finish the sparge runoff and light the burner.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

Offline alcaponejunior

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 360
  • Latest creation: Big Smash Saturday
    • View Profile
    • alcaponejunior.wordpress.com
Re: First Wort Hopping question
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2013, 09:55:42 AM »
I use FWH in most of my beers, from APA/AIPA to pils and even tripels.

It gives me a nice hop flavor and adds a bit of smooth bitterness.  I start by deciding how much hop flavor I want, then adding the appropriate amount of FWH....usually 1-2 oz.  I count the bitterness from them as a 20 min. addition.  After having some beers analyzed, that seems like a pretty accurate guess.  Then I add enough hops at 60 to get the bitterness I'm going for.

Curious.  Beersmith II counts FWH as giving more bitterness units than a 60 minute addition.  .75 of bravo at 60 gives me 37.9 IBUs, .75 of bravo at FWH gives me 41.7.  Any ideas?

Offline malzig

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 466
    • View Profile
Re: First Wort Hopping question
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2013, 10:11:52 AM »
I use FWH in most of my beers, from APA/AIPA to pils and even tripels.

It gives me a nice hop flavor and adds a bit of smooth bitterness.  I start by deciding how much hop flavor I want, then adding the appropriate amount of FWH....usually 1-2 oz.  I count the bitterness from them as a 20 min. addition.  After having some beers analyzed, that seems like a pretty accurate guess.  Then I add enough hops at 60 to get the bitterness I'm going for.

Curious.  Beersmith II counts FWH as giving more bitterness units than a 60 minute addition.  .75 of bravo at 60 gives me 37.9 IBUs, .75 of bravo at FWH gives me 41.7.  Any ideas?
That sounds about right.  FWH can give about 10% more IBUs than a 60' addition, but less bitterness.

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 11643
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • View Profile
    • Dennybrew
First Wort Hopping question
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2013, 10:33:37 AM »
I use FWH in most of my beers, from APA/AIPA to pils and even tripels.

It gives me a nice hop flavor and adds a bit of smooth bitterness.  I start by deciding how much hop flavor I want, then adding the appropriate amount of FWH....usually 1-2 oz.  I count the bitterness from them as a 20 min. addition.  After having some beers analyzed, that seems like a pretty accurate guess.  Then I add enough hops at 60 to get the bitterness I'm going for.

Curious.  Beersmith II counts FWH as giving more bitterness units than a 60 minute addition.  .75 of bravo at 60 gives me 37.9 IBUs, .75 of bravo at FWH gives me 41.7.  Any ideas?

My own lab analysis showed that FWH beers measured about 10% more IBU.  But generally we taste beer, not measure it!  In a blind tasting, FWH beers were generally found to taste less bitter despite the increased measured IBU.

And that brings up a point about Beersmith and all other brewing software.....they're tools to help you brew the way you want to brew, not instructions on how to brew.  Don't automatically assume that any defaults are correct for you and your system.  For example, Promash comes set to default to evaporation as a %.  But the writer of it says you should reset that to gal./hr.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

Offline alcaponejunior

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 360
  • Latest creation: Big Smash Saturday
    • View Profile
    • alcaponejunior.wordpress.com
Re: First Wort Hopping question
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2013, 06:05:43 PM »
LOL I decided to FWH my bravo/munich smash today.  The difference in IBUs on beersmith is low, only 48 for FWH verses 45 for a 60 minute addition.  No biggie, right?

Except that somehow the process of deciding to FWH my beer led my mind into believing that a half an ounce was equal to 28 grams.  D'oh!  :o

Turns out half an ounce is still fourteen grams.   ::)

And my beer will be about 30 IBUs higher than I planned.  They were bravo hops, high AA.  So it went from APA to IPA just like that.  8)

It will still be good tho.  I can feel it.  ;D

Offline Pi

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 310
  • "I would never trade tomorrow for today"
    • View Profile
Re: First Wort Hopping question
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2013, 08:47:21 AM »
Guess I'm a little confused about IBUs. I always thought international bittering units was a measurement of bitterness- something that is quantifiable. So how can a beer with higher IBUs have less bitterness but more flavor? I agree with Denny that beer should is best enjoyed tasted and not measured, but when working with FW hopping and dry hopping (especially using a new hop) it is hard to know how much and how long. Is there a way of measuring how much flavor/aroma a hop will impart based on Alpha acid or some other metric?
Primary:Stella Rosemary IPA
Lagering: Sto Lat Gratzer
Drinking: Whenever I'm not working or driving

Offline AmandaK

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 930
  • Redbird Brewhouse
    • View Profile
Re: First Wort Hopping question
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2013, 09:09:20 AM »
Guess I'm a little confused about IBUs. I always thought international bittering units was a measurement of bitterness- something that is quantifiable. So how can a beer with higher IBUs have less bitterness but more flavor? I agree with Denny that beer should is best enjoyed tasted and not measured, but when working with FW hopping and dry hopping (especially using a new hop) it is hard to know how much and how long. Is there a way of measuring how much flavor/aroma a hop will impart based on Alpha acid or some other metric?

There are different qualities of bitterness. A coarse bitterness that measures at 50 IBU will seem/taste more bitter than a refined bitterness that measures at 50 IBU. If you read the new Hops book, you will see that flavor and aroma are only barely understood.
Amanda Kertz
Kansas City Bier Meister
BJCP National

Offline hubie

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 234
    • View Profile
Re: First Wort Hopping question
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2013, 09:15:10 AM »
Guess I'm a little confused about IBUs. I always thought international bittering units was a measurement of bitterness- something that is quantifiable. So how can a beer with higher IBUs have less bitterness but more flavor? I agree with Denny that beer should is best enjoyed tasted and not measured, but when working with FW hopping and dry hopping (especially using a new hop) it is hard to know how much and how long. Is there a way of measuring how much flavor/aroma a hop will impart based on Alpha acid or some other metric?

IBUs are easy to measure, but bitterness is not.  Bitterness depends upon complex chemical reactions in the mouth, cheek, nose, etc., and vary from person to person.  Bitterness does correlate with IBUs, but it is not predictable like IBUs are.

As for predictability of flavor and aroma, my reading of Stan Hieronymous' Hops book basically says you cannot currently predict flavor nor aroma.  You need to rely on experience with the hops. 

Offline bentwood

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 27
    • View Profile
Re: First Wort Hopping question
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2013, 06:23:26 AM »
After recently reading this article: http://www.mrmalty.com/late_hopping.php I gave late hopping a try and I would have to agree with the author.  The hop additions were smoother overall and I tend to believe this is because the hops were not subjected to a lengthy boil time.  It makes a certain amount of sense that the longer you boil hops the more harsh flavors will be extracted. 

Notably, the IPA I brewed did not have harsh hop flavors even several days into the conical.  In my experience it can take some time for the hop flavors to mellow and smooth out but this batch was smooth to begin with and had some amazing floral aromas.  You'll have to judge for yourselves, but I'm sold. 

Offline hopfenundmalz

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 4524
  • Milford, MI
    • View Profile
Re: First Wort Hopping question
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2013, 06:55:22 AM »
Maybe it is just me but I find the directions to doing FWH a little confusing. Got this brew tip the other day that reads in part:

FWH involves adding a portion of the hops to the boiler at the very beginning of the sparging process, allowing these hops to steep as the sparging completes and remaining in the kettle throughout the boil. Add the hops to the boiler as soon as you have finished recirculating the first runnings.

My guess is 30% of your flavour and aroma hops is added to the wort in the brew pot you just collected from draining the mash tun the first time, letting them steep while the grain in the mash tun is then sparged, about a half hour.

Anyone use FWH? How did it work for you?
I recently brewed a CAP with Jeff Renner. The FWH were kept in the 170F +/- temp range for a full hour. That was also a convenient lunch break.
Jeff Rankert
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild, AHA Member, BJCP Certified
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline ynotbrusum

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1000
  • Da mihi sis cerevisiam.
    • View Profile
Re: First Wort Hopping question
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2013, 11:26:24 AM »
I figured I would give it a try with a blonde ale I brewed yesterday.  1 oz of Cascades at FWH.  Still to style according to Beersmith 2, so we'll see how it drinks.
Hodge Garage Brewing: "Brew with a glad heart!"

Offline joe_feist

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 114
  • Grand Rapids, MI
    • View Profile
Re: First Wort Hopping question
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2013, 09:54:55 AM »
Thanks for the article. I've been experimenting with my last couple batches with loads of hops and adding them late. There's the Q&A session on this forum with Steele and there's his book "IPA." The article you linked seems to go along the same lines; though I only scanned it today and will read later. The boss hates it when I'm reading beer articles during work hours...lol.

Thanks again,
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.
Mark Twain