Author Topic: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths  (Read 11245 times)

Offline weithman5

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Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2013, 12:55:48 PM »
And let's not forget, in most cases kegged beer tastes better!

REALLY struggling to find an example of when bottle conditioning produces better beer than draft.

I don't buy it for sours or high-gravity, "ageable" beers. Unless you're trying to save cellar space or don't want to invest in kegs to age beers.

this is actually a question i have for all of those out there who won medals the last few years at nhc.  how many winners were bottle conditioned versus how many were keg conditioned and transferred to the bottle.  that is interesting to me.
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Offline tomsawyer

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Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
« Reply #31 on: February 06, 2013, 01:00:06 PM »
I liked the article, especially the point about commercial fermentors and the pressure that inhibit ester formation.  I'm doing some pressurized fermentations in my Brewhemoth and getting good results at higher temps.

As far as the caramelization point, yes you are right but it is a technical argument.  Most people think of caramlizing as the darkening of wort, and to this extent it is accurate.
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Offline denny

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Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2013, 01:08:29 PM »
As far as the caramelization point, yes you are right but it is a technical argument.  Most people think of caramlizing as the darkening of wort, and to this extent it is accurate.

I feel just the opposite.  I think that people should be aware of what's REALLY happening, not feed their misinformation.
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Offline madfermentationist

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Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2013, 01:16:50 PM »
#6 has certainly been the most discussed one on the list, but I stand by it. The point of the post wasn’t that kegging isn’t faster than bottling (I agreed that it often is), just that the time savings isn’t huge, all things considered I said “the total time spent is similar.”

It seems like many people aren’t as thorough with their cleaning/sanitizing as I am (cleaning the lines between every batch, cleaning dip-tubes thoroughly etc.), but in many cases without issue. I have a couple friends who were lax on their sanitation and ended up with persistent microbial issues with their taps. I worry that people hear about the huge time savings and minimal effort kegging requires, and then aren’t as dedicated as they should be the less glamorous aspects of having beer on tap.

And let's not forget, in most cases kegged beer tastes better!

REALLY struggling to find an example of when bottle conditioning produces better beer than draft.

I don't buy it for sours or high-gravity, "ageable" beers. Unless you're trying to save cellar space or don't want to invest in kegs to age beers.

Kegging is certainly a perfect vehicle for many session beers and especially anything hoppy, but I don’t think it is the best choice for all styles. Bottles easily allow for higher or lower levels of carbonation than kegging, its rare a hefe-weizen or gueuze is going to be as good on tap as it is in bottles. I also think bottle conditioning is an essential element of flavor development for beers fermented with Brettanomyces.  In general I also enjoy bottling just for the ability to space out consumption of a batch that benefits from age. Two weeks ago I had the last bottle of an old ale I brewed in 2006, how many people still have beers they kegged more than six years ago?

Always happy when I can stir up some debate!

Offline majorvices

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The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2013, 01:22:42 PM »
I do agree that for higher co2 level beers kegs make it challenging to serve via draft, such as belgians and hefeweizens. Not impossible though if you have a restrictor or 30 ft bev line.

Still going to have to vehemently disagree with your assertion that kegging and bottling have near equal time frames. Just doesn't work that way for me and never has!
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 01:27:57 PM by majorvices »
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2013, 01:23:24 PM »
And let's not forget, in most cases kegged beer tastes better!

REALLY struggling to find an example of when bottle conditioning produces better beer than draft.

I don't buy it for sours or high-gravity, "ageable" beers. Unless you're trying to save cellar space or don't want to invest in kegs to age beers.

this is actually a question i have for all of those out there who won medals the last few years at nhc.  how many winners were bottle conditioned versus how many were keg conditioned and transferred to the bottle.  that is interesting to me.

One was bottle conditioned and one was lagered and carbonated in the keg. Glad to settle the debate.  ;)
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Offline madfermentationist

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Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
« Reply #36 on: February 06, 2013, 01:30:23 PM »
One was bottle conditioned and one was lagered and carbonated in the keg. Glad to settle the debate.  ;)

My three (out of six) entries that advanced to the second round were all bottle conditioned (sours). Two made the mini-BOS in the finals, but sadly neither placed. However, I’ve noticed from the winners recipes in Zymurgy that often two thirds to three quarters of the winners force-carb and then bottle. I’m never sure how much of this is correlation and how much is causation. Is it that the more serious competition minded brewers force carbonate, or is it actually producing the best beers?

Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
« Reply #37 on: February 06, 2013, 01:30:50 PM »
I bottle off the keg all the time and use flippies almost exclusively for bottling.  That saves time!  As to the keezer - keep it outside in the garage and have a spray bottle of Star San solution ready at all times to stay ahead of mold issues (spray then wipe a problem area - why empty out the whole thing?)  I also have a stainless grate  (1 inch tall) on the bottom of the keezer to keep the kegs/fermentors up off the bottom and it keeps everything much cleaner overall, because air can get under the kegs and keep a little dribble here and there from becoming a problem (or spray some Star San solution under there until the keg is changed out).  Once a year I shut it down for major cleaning, but even that is a few minutes only to complete.  Just my little mods to make life easier.  And, yes, I have some bottled from keg that are approaching 6 years, without any problem (in flippies to boot).

As to keg cleaning - I am with Keith; I break them down completely after each use.  I typically clean, sanitize and top them off with CO2 in about 5-10 minutes each in the middle of a mash or boil session when there is nothing else to do.
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Offline weithman5

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Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
« Reply #38 on: February 06, 2013, 01:42:39 PM »

[

One was bottle conditioned and one was lagered and carbonated in the keg. Glad to settle the debate.  ;)

just stoking the fire.  my big concern is really for some of the beers that i want to be clear.  any disruption in shipping and more importantly once the beer is opened and co2 comes out of solution, this disrupts the yeast itself and the second pour will not be as clear as the first.
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Offline james

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Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
« Reply #39 on: February 06, 2013, 01:49:01 PM »
Two weeks ago I had the last bottle of an old ale I brewed in 2006, how many people still have beers they kegged more than six years ago?

I still have a keg of 2007 Barleywine with about a gallon left in it.  I really need to bottle the leftovers but I keep putting it off.  Maybe I'll bottle the rest up and submit some to NHC this year.

I doubt many people have beers that old in kegs.  I think my next oldest is probably from 2009

Offline majorvices

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The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
« Reply #40 on: February 06, 2013, 02:12:34 PM »
Two weeks ago I had the last bottle of an old ale I brewed in 2006, how many people still have beers they kegged more than six years ago?

I still have a keg of 2007 Barleywine with about a gallon left in it.  I really need to bottle the leftovers but I keep putting it off.  Maybe I'll bottle the rest up and submit some to NHC this year.

I doubt many people have beers that old in kegs.  I think my next oldest is probably from 2009

I guess I can say it too! :) I have a keg of RIS from 2006 that is about 1/2 full and another keg of Old Ale from 2007. I drank my last two bottles of 2006 Bruised Bare Knuckles barley wine this last year. But I do have other odd assorted bottles ranging back to that time period.
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Offline kylekohlmorgen

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Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
« Reply #41 on: February 06, 2013, 03:07:07 PM »
Two weeks ago I had the last bottle of an old ale I brewed in 2006, how many people still have beers they kegged more than six years ago?

You gotta really commit to aging a beer in a keg - its REALLY easy to pull a half empty keg of old RIS or sour beer and put it on tap when you've hit a dry spell.

Its also hard to keep a bit of aging beer in a keg when you're full and don't want to buy another!

I've always thought it was worth the benefits (always able to blend, no risk of oxidation, etc.). My wife, OTOH, would rather see a case of old bottles than the herd of kegs in the basement!
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Offline jeffy

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Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
« Reply #42 on: February 06, 2013, 03:56:22 PM »
And let's not forget, in most cases kegged beer tastes better!

REALLY struggling to find an example of when bottle conditioning produces better beer than draft.

I don't buy it for sours or high-gravity, "ageable" beers. Unless you're trying to save cellar space or don't want to invest in kegs to age beers.

this is actually a question i have for all of those out there who won medals the last few years at nhc.  how many winners were bottle conditioned versus how many were keg conditioned and transferred to the bottle.  that is interesting to me.

One was bottle conditioned and one was lagered and carbonated in the keg. Glad to settle the debate.  ;)

Jeff Renner and I have speculated that the pilsners in the final round seem to suffer from oxidation more often if there is no visible sediment in the bottles.
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Offline weithman5

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Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
« Reply #43 on: February 06, 2013, 04:25:02 PM »

[/quote]

Jeff Renner and I have speculated that the pilsners in the final round seem to suffer from oxidation more often if there is no visible sediment in the bottles.
[/quote]

makes me say hmmmmm
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Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
« Reply #44 on: February 06, 2013, 04:49:03 PM »
Using sugar results in cidery flavors.
Leaving beer in the fermenter for a couple months results in autolysis.
Squeezing the grain bag extracts tannins.
One smack pack is plenty of yeast for a 5 gal batch.
3/16" beverage tubing has a resistance of 2-3 psi/ft.

It isn't a myth per se, but not understanding the limits of calculations... "My IPA came in at 7.19% ABV and 75.6 IBU."

How about the big one? Home brewing saves money.
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