Author Topic: Salt calculation  (Read 2482 times)

Offline yso191

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 633
  • Yakima, WA
    • View Profile
Salt calculation
« on: February 21, 2013, 06:43:43 PM »
I can't seem to find this anywhere.  How much salt do I add to a gallon to achieve a concentration of 100 ppm?
Steve

Online hopfenundmalz

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 4535
  • Milford, MI
    • View Profile
Re: Salt calculation
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2013, 07:23:33 PM »
You can use your favorite water program to plug numbers in. 100 of sodium or chloride?

1 gram/gallon salt gives 104 ppm sodium and 160 ppm chloride.
Jeff Rankert
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild, AHA Member, BJCP Certified
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline yso191

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 633
  • Yakima, WA
    • View Profile
Re: Salt calculation
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2013, 07:39:33 PM »
Well crap.  I was afraid of that.

I use EZWater and there is no way to add salt and have it calculate the result.  It will do it in a water report, but I use 100% RO water.

I've been thinking I should have some sodium in my darker/maltier beers.
Steve

Offline mabrungard

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1097
    • View Profile
    • Bru'n Water
Re: Salt calculation
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2013, 06:48:44 AM »
Hmm?  Maybe you should move UP to Bru'n Water?
Martin B
Carmel, IN

BJCP National
Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

Brewing Water Information at:
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

Like Bru'n Water on Facebook for occasional discussions on brewing water and Bru'n Water

Offline mtnrockhopper

  • I spend way too much time on the AHA forum
  • ********
  • Posts: 2881
  • Delaware
    • View Profile
Re: Salt calculation
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2013, 07:23:57 AM »
Jimmy K

Delmarva United Homebrewers - President by inverse coup when the old president ousted himself.
AHA Member since 2006
BJCP: B0958

Offline yso191

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 633
  • Yakima, WA
    • View Profile
Re: Salt calculation
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2013, 11:00:43 AM »
Hmm?  Maybe you should move UP to Bru'n Water?

Martin, since I started brewing last Fall, I have valued your inputs on this forum as well as HomeBrewTalk.  Thank you for all you do for us pikers.  I have read your website (https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge) multiple times... Yeah pretty sure I still couldn't pass a test based on the material, but I keep trying.

So having said that, I have a copy of Bru'n Water on my computer which I open periodically.  It is just too complex and intimidating for me at this stage of my understanding.  The reason I use EZ Water is because it is easy.

Someone in my past said "Quadratic equations are easy if you know how to do them."  I am sure the complexity and detail are there for a reason and I'm equally sure it doesn't seem like it should be intimidating in the least to you (or maybe even that it should be self-evident).  But looking at your Bru'n water spreadsheet kind of reminds me of a political cartoon I saw once:  The then current president was sitting in the pilot's seat of a jumbo jet looking at the array of dials, controls, etc., and was saying, "No Sweat.  Just show me where on is."

BTW I voted for you for the AHA Governing Committee.  Thanks for all you do.
Steve

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 11665
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • View Profile
    • Dennybrew
Re: Salt calculation
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2013, 11:12:17 AM »
Steve, do you use spreadsheets?  That's basically all Bru'nwater is.  After you input the water you're using, you play "what if" with mineral additions until you get close to what the profile you've selected says.  It's not too difficult and well worth some time spent learning it.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

Offline davidgzach

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1498
    • View Profile
Re: Salt calculation
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2013, 08:54:07 AM »
Steve, do you use spreadsheets?  That's basically all Bru'nwater is.  After you input the water you're using, you play "what if" with mineral additions until you get close to what the profile you've selected says.  It's not too difficult and well worth some time spent learning it.

+1.  Once you input your water profile, just follow the directions.  Pop back to the forum for questions as many of us use Martin's spreadsheet.

And I voted for you as well Martin!  Good luck!

Dave
Dave Zach

Offline bbkf

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 52
    • View Profile
Re: Salt calculation
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2013, 10:34:44 AM »
1 ppm = 1 mg/L, so 100 ppm = 100 mg/L

how much to add depends on the type of salt you are adding. remember that when you call calcium in the form of CaCl2, you are adding chloride too.

If you want to add 100 ppm calcium to 10 gallons of water using calcium chloride (anhydrous, not dihydrate)....

molecular weight of anhydrous calcium chloride is 110.9
mw of Ca = 40
mw of Cl = 35.45
40 + 2(35.34) = 110.9
therefore, each gram of CaCl2 is: 36% calcium and 64% chloride

to add 100 ppm calcium, you'd have to add 277 mg calcium chloride for each liter
 X(0.36)=100 mg, X = 277 mg

10 gallons water = 37.85 liters

277 X 37.85 = 10,484 mg = 10.484 grams calcium chloride for 10 gallons of water
(you will also be adding 177 ppm chloride)



*note* beersmith versions 1 and 2 are wrong by assuming CaCl and not CaCl2.

 

Offline Alewyfe

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 344
  • Fighting for Truth, Justice & Home Brew
    • View Profile
Re: Salt calculation
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2013, 11:22:09 AM »
Hmm?  Maybe you should move UP to Bru'n Water?

Martin, since I started brewing last Fall, I have valued your inputs on this forum as well as HomeBrewTalk.  Thank you for all you do for us pikers.  I have read your website (https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge) multiple times... Yeah pretty sure I still couldn't pass a test based on the material, but I keep trying.

So having said that, I have a copy of Bru'n Water on my computer which I open periodically.  It is just too complex and intimidating for me at this stage of my understanding.  The reason I use EZ Water is because it is easy.

Someone in my past said "Quadratic equations are easy if you know how to do them."  I am sure the complexity and detail are there for a reason and I'm equally sure it doesn't seem like it should be intimidating in the least to you (or maybe even that it should be self-evident).  But looking at your Bru'n water spreadsheet kind of reminds me of a political cartoon I saw once:  The then current president was sitting in the pilot's seat of a jumbo jet looking at the array of dials, controls, etc., and was saying, "No Sweat.  Just show me where on is."

BTW I voted for you for the AHA Governing Committee.  Thanks for all you do.

1. I flunked chemistry classes
2. I get confused easily (I even had to label salt jars with +pH or -pH )
3. I used Brewater and EZ Water for a long time with mixed results
4. Martin's spreadsheet has more stuff, but in the long run, is more accurate and has some built in double checks that tell you when things are wrong. (ie: the beer color - if it and your recipe don't match, you've entered your grains wrong)
5. It can be used whether you really understand water chemistry or not - using it will actually teach you and give you a pretty good understanding of what these ions are actually contributing as you tweak your beers.

I encourage you to start playing with it. It's most useful for those of us who don't know it all, and Martin seems always ready to answer your questions and help where necessary. Don't be afraid of it.
Diane
Roseburg, Oregon
Member: Umpqua Valley Brewers Guild
             Cascade Brewers Society
             AHA

"Growing old is mandatory. Growing up? Definitely optional!"

Offline bbkf

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 52
    • View Profile
Re: Salt calculation
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2013, 11:36:25 AM »

1. I flunked chemistry classes
2. I get confused easily (I even had to label salt jars with +pH or -pH )
3. I used Brewater and EZ Water for a long time with mixed results
4. Martin's spreadsheet has more stuff, but in the long run, is more accurate and has some built in double checks that tell you when things are wrong. (ie: the beer color - if it and your recipe don't match, you've entered your grains wrong)
5. It can be used whether you really understand water chemistry or not - using it will actually teach you and give you a pretty good understanding of what these ions are actually contributing as you tweak your beers.

I encourage you to start playing with it. It's most useful for those of us who don't know it all, and Martin seems always ready to answer your questions and help where necessary. Don't be afraid of it.

don't sweat it too much.  I showed the math involved in case anyone wanted to know HOW the additions are figured out.  Even if you understand the chemistry and math involved, we all lack the ability to accurately measure the salts that we add in addition to the volume of water.  With the combination of the two measurements, you could be off as much as 25% or more.

Online hopfenundmalz

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 4535
  • Milford, MI
    • View Profile
Re: Salt calculation
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2013, 12:53:41 PM »

1. I flunked chemistry classes
2. I get confused easily (I even had to label salt jars with +pH or -pH )
3. I used Brewater and EZ Water for a long time with mixed results
4. Martin's spreadsheet has more stuff, but in the long run, is more accurate and has some built in double checks that tell you when things are wrong. (ie: the beer color - if it and your recipe don't match, you've entered your grains wrong)
5. It can be used whether you really understand water chemistry or not - using it will actually teach you and give you a pretty good understanding of what these ions are actually contributing as you tweak your beers.

I encourage you to start playing with it. It's most useful for those of us who don't know it all, and Martin seems always ready to answer your questions and help where necessary. Don't be afraid of it.

don't sweat it too much.  I showed the math involved in case anyone wanted to know HOW the additions are figured out.  Even if you understand the chemistry and math involved, we all lack the ability to accurately measure the salts that we add in addition to the volume of water.  With the combination of the two measurements, you could be off as much as 25% or more.
Can you explain your error analysis in more detail?
I use 1 and 5 gallon jugs, and know the levels in my kettles. I have a 100 gram capacity scale with a 0.01 gram resolution. My water volume and salt mass additions should be pretty close.
Jeff Rankert
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild, AHA Member, BJCP Certified
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline tschmidlin

  • I must live here
  • **********
  • Posts: 8130
  • Redmond, WA
    • View Profile
Re: Salt calculation
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2013, 02:44:46 PM »
Can you explain your error analysis in more detail?
I use 1 and 5 gallon jugs, and know the levels in my kettles. I have a 100 gram capacity scale with a 0.01 gram resolution. My water volume and salt mass additions should be pretty close.
I'm not sure what was specifically meant, but CaCl at least has a tendency to suck moisture from the atmosphere and weigh more than it should on a ppm basis.  If you leave it open and live somewhere humid . . . well, there's a reason it is used as a dehumidifier. :)
Tom Schmidlin

Online hopfenundmalz

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 4535
  • Milford, MI
    • View Profile
Re: Salt calculation
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2013, 03:45:21 PM »
Can you explain your error analysis in more detail?
I use 1 and 5 gallon jugs, and know the levels in my kettles. I have a 100 gram capacity scale with a 0.01 gram resolution. My water volume and salt mass additions should be pretty close.
I'm not sure what was specifically meant, but CaCl at least has a tendency to suck moisture from the atmosphere and weigh more than it should on a ppm basis.  If you leave it open and live somewhere humid . . . well, there's a reason it is used as a dehumidifier. :)
And Epsom salt is MgSO4,  is it MgSO4·7H2O?
I hope Martin can lend some knowledge here.
Jeff Rankert
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild, AHA Member, BJCP Certified
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline bbkf

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 52
    • View Profile
Re: Salt calculation
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2013, 04:16:26 PM »

Can you explain your error analysis in more detail?
I use 1 and 5 gallon jugs, and know the levels in my kettles. I have a 100 gram capacity scale with a 0.01 gram resolution. My water volume and salt mass additions should be pretty close.

expensive laboratory graduated cylinders are +/- 5% accuracy.  I'd expect your 1 or 5 gallon jug to be much worse.  using a small vessel to measure volume multiple times increases your error even more.

have you ever calibrated your scale?