[davidgzach]

That's interesting.  10ml is a good amount.  I used 5ml the other day in my Hefe.  I'll remember to try and perceive any twang to it.

Dave

[Wort-H.O.G.]

That's interesting.  10ml is a good amount.  I used 5ml the other day in my Hefe.  I'll remember to try and perceive any twang to it.

Dave

it was in the back of my mind as the culprit, and why i asked the question about the amount threshold. im guilty of not even thinking 10ML would have and perceivable tastes in roughly 8 gallons of mash water. seems like such a small amount.

[mabrungard]

The 400 ppm taste threshold for lactic in beer was presented in Malting and Brewing Science.  The important things to remember is that this is the median response in humans, some may detect it at lower concentrations. In addition, malt and yeast also contribute lactic acid to the beer.  Malting and Brewing Science indicates somewhere in the range of 200 to 300 ppm is contributed by those sources.  Therefore you can't just add the equivalent of 400 ppm lactic acid to a beer or the water.  The allowable amount will be less.  I've suggested that limiting the lactic acid addition to produce 200 ppm or less concentration is wise. 

Since lactic acid is a monovalent acid, for every 1 ppm of bicarbonate you neutralize with that acid, 1 ppm of lactate is added to the wort or water.  So using the Bru'n Water calculator, you can quickly see what you are adding to the mash water since the acid addition shows up as a negative Bicarbonate addition.  Keep that value below -200 ppm and you should be good.  It turns out that for 88% lactic acid, that equates to about 1 to 1.1 mL acid per gallon of water.  So 5 mL in 5 gal is safe.  10 mL is probably pushing it.

PS: Lactic flavor can be a pleasant component in some beer styles, so don't fret if you exceed this limit.  For instance, doubling that safe 1 to 1.1 mL per gallon dose should produce a notable lactic taste.  Good for Wits, Berliners, etc.

[Wort-H.O.G.]

The 400 ppm taste threshold for lactic in beer was presented in Malting and Brewing Science.  The important things to remember is that this is the median response in humans, some may detect it at lower concentrations. In addition, malt and yeast also contribute lactic acid to the beer.  Malting and Brewing Science indicates somewhere in the range of 200 to 300 ppm is contributed by those sources.  Therefore you can't just add the equivalent of 400 ppm lactic acid to a beer or the water.  The allowable amount will be less.  I've suggested that limiting the lactic acid addition to produce 200 ppm or less concentration is wise. 

Since lactic acid is a monovalent acid, for every 1 ppm of bicarbonate you neutralize with that acid, 1 ppm of lactate is added to the wort or water.  So using the Bru'n Water calculator, you can quickly see what you are adding to the mash water since the acid addition shows up as a negative Bicarbonate addition.  Keep that value below -200 ppm and you should be good.  It turns out that for 88% lactic acid, that equates to about 1 to 1.1 mL acid per gallon of water.  So 5 mL in 5 gal is safe.  10 mL is probably pushing it.

PS: Lactic flavor can be a pleasant component in some beer styles, so don't fret if you exceed this limit.  For instance, doubling that safe 1 to 1.1 mL per gallon should produce a notable lactic taste.  Good for Wits, Berliners, etc.

this has been a great "ahha" day!  using my well water (high bicarb and alkalinity), Bru'n water has required me to add about 10ml of lactic acid to 5.5 gallons of mash water to hit Ph of 5.2 -5.3.  for me, i can taste that in my pale ale and there is nothing good about that in this beer.  its time to install my RO system and my adjustments with lactic acid will be minimal, at best. will also take care of the sodium issue, so win win for me!

thanks everyone for help in the discovery today....i love this forum.

[redbeerman]

You could also use phosphoric acid.  It is much cleaner.  I have the same issue, so I mix my well water with store bought spring water (it is low in mineral content).  Everything below 9 SRM requires a pH adjustment to the mash.

[Wort-H.O.G.]

You could also use phosphoric acid.  It is much cleaner.  I have the same issue, so I mix my well water with store bought spring water (it is low in mineral content).  Everything below 9 SRM requires a pH adjustment to the mash.

I have never used phosphoric acid, and don't know how it impacts vs. lactic. I've just decided install RO system and minimize my acid additions based upon my acid contribution from the grain for the recipe. Even without crystal or roasted malt, I will only need 1-3 ml of acid at best to hit 5.2-5.3. Also, solves my sodium issue of 114 ppm in my well water.