Author Topic: NHC 2013 Entry Problems - Possible Solutions?  (Read 39063 times)

Online Kaiser

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1797
  • Imperial Brewing Geek
    • View Profile
    • braukaiser.com
Re: NHC 2013 Entry Problems - Possible Solutions?
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2013, 10:27:08 AM »
Looks like we got a lot of new members here :)

Not entering competitions myself I do think that a lower limit is a fair approach. That way you'll have judge which beers to enter. Everybody has this limit and that's why I think it would be fair.

Kai

Offline phunhog

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 183
    • View Profile
Re: NHC 2013 Entry Problems - Possible Solutions?
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2013, 10:33:44 AM »
Actually the solution is MUCH easier!! Just bump up the entry fee to 50 bucks per beer.  That will pretty much eliminate anyone entering just for feedback....you will only enter if your beers are really, really good and you think you might win. As someone else said....if you want feedback you can enter any BJCP comp and get that. I believe the GABF does this for the commercial beer comp...except the entry fee is something like 500 dollars!!  It keeps most breweries from  "carpet bombing" the competition and entering every single beer they make.

Offline gsandel

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 324
  • www.onbeer.blogspot.com
    • View Profile
    • On Beer
Re: NHC 2013 Entry Problems - Possible Solutions?
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2013, 10:41:00 AM »
Quote
I personally wouldn't enter under any scenario where I'm limited to a small number of entries.

But if you medaled three out of three we would bow....even batting 1.000 into the second round is an accomplishment beyond reproach.  Winning where the odds on getting into the competition are equal is better than winning because you put the odds of entering in your favor.  Entering 14 crappy beers and one good one does the same to improve your odds on that one beer by removing 14 other potential competitors from the field.  Imagine if those 14 other competitors were planning entering in the same catagory as you.  This is perfectly ok by the rules as they stand.

I like the radical idea of 1 beer per membership.  You have to judge the beers you have in your stable, and pick your strongest.  This tests the skill of the brewer as well as his/her own palate and judgement.  You have to have a good beer, you have to know it is your best beer, and you are playing against a field doing the exact same thing.  Draconian yes, but very inclusive.
You wouldn't believe the things I've seen...

Offline twhayes7

  • 1st Kit
  • *
  • Posts: 2
    • View Profile
    • Withered Dewlap
Re: NHC 2013 Entry Problems - Possible Solutions?
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2013, 10:42:13 AM »
I think many of the solutions here are good, including bumping the per beer/entry cost. I also wonder if it's possible to make the competition tiered by region. I'm in theater and this is the way the KACTF works. Everyone competes in his/her region and the winners of the region advance to the final. Then you have no crush at all.

Also, for those people bemoaning the fact that they logged in late: it made NO difference. I logged in at 3:06pm, registered (after fighting they lag times); and then experienced a continual succession of 503 errors for nearly :30 mins when I tried to add a beer/entry. I then gave up thinking I'd come back in a while and add my beer. At 5:28 it was full. 

This was a wholly inadequate system for what needed to be accomplished.
_______________

http://www.withereddewlap.com

On deck: Dopplebock
Fermenting: Conway's Irish Ale Clone
Kegged: Christmas Ale (Nosferatu clone w/spices); Hopslam Clone

Offline AleForce

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 78
    • View Profile
    • AleForce1
Re: NHC 2013 Entry Problems - Possible Solutions?
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2013, 10:45:54 AM »
Giving preference to AHA members during registration gives more value to joining the association. That should be something the association should seriously consider.  In addition having placed in a pre-qualified AHA sanctioned contest you could be given a code for entering into the NHC early. These are the homebrewers that are making other competitions happen and are serious about the competitions. This would add value to these competitions and increase their entries too.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 11:37:04 AM by AleForce »
Off We Go Into The Wild Brew Yonder!

Offline duboman

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 785
    • View Profile
Re: NHC 2013 Entry Problems - Possible Solutions?
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2013, 10:46:05 AM »
To chime in............

I am a relatively new member, 2 years no even though I have been brewing for more than that. I am one of the lucky one's that after two hours of frustrating F5's got my registration in an entries (4) total. However I am also one of the many that now have two charges on my card as a result of the payment glitches that were experienced. Having just spoken to Janis I fully understand that will be rectified and I will eventually receive a credit for the duplicate charge.

Having said all that, this is my first foray into the National comp and I am only doing so this year because after having done several comps in the local circuits I have some beers that have been ranked high with winning medals and now wanted to see how they fared on the national level.

This was obviously a huge debacle and it is unfortunate that it happened. I too believe that 5 entries is more than adequate and would allow many more brewers the opportunity to enter. I also believe that if you are an AHA member you should be allowed an early entry opportunity as a benefit of being a member. If one is not a member then there is the incentive to become one or understand that if the event fills up, non-members may in fact get shut out.

This scenario is really no different then  being the member of a club for a music artist or season ticket holder of a sports team. If you belong there are added benefits to early access to tickets and events, etc.

I am also one to believe that entries should be based upon having placed a medal in a local BJCP tasting competition or at least a score of 30 or above. This would force brewers to utilize the benefits of local sanctioned events and place a requirement on the National comp level. Personally I do not feel as though these are unreasonable requirements and would limit the amount of beers submitted that are really just way under par. If a brewer wants to know how their beer is they should find out first locally and if it fits the bill then it can move on.

In all I am confident that things will get worked out and I am sure the folks at the AHA are far more disappointing in the way things went then those that are ranting all over the web.

Good luck to all that got in and cheers!
Peace....Love......Beer......

The Commune Brewing Company-Perfecting the craft of beer since 2010

Offline hopfenundmalz

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 4535
  • Milford, MI
    • View Profile
Re: NHC 2013 Entry Problems - Possible Solutions?
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2013, 10:50:38 AM »
I don't see any other way unless there is a lottery.  Each person gets 15 chances and we draw randomly....kind of like hunting season.  There will be years you get to enter a number of beers, there will be years that you get to choose your best one, and sometimes you stay home.

I think the problem with a lottery is that there are more brewers trying to enter than there are entries available. Odds are good you'd end up with one entry, with a very few people getting two and essentially no one getting three or more.

I personally wouldn't enter under any scenario where I'm limited to a small number of entries. Not because I'm trying for Ninkasi, but because my goal is to have one beer medal in the second round. I want to go up on stage, shake Charlie's hand, and bask in your applause... Bend you all to my will... Dance! Dance my puppets, dance!

Wait, what were talking about again?
The last time we got on the stage, Charlie was not there. Settled for shaking hands with Gary, which was cool.
Jeff Rankert
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild, AHA Member, BJCP Certified
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Online Kaiser

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1797
  • Imperial Brewing Geek
    • View Profile
    • braukaiser.com
Re: NHC 2013 Entry Problems - Possible Solutions?
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2013, 10:55:24 AM »
Don't bump the price. That would make the amount you can throw at this a big part of your chances to win.



Kai

Offline brewmanator

  • Cellarman
  • **
  • Posts: 64
    • View Profile
Re: NHC 2013 Entry Problems - Possible Solutions?
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2013, 11:05:23 AM »
The pre-qualification argument to reduce entries is not a good one.  That's what the first round of this competition is for.  If you want to enter a competition where you have to pre-qualify then google MCAB and proceed from there.

- Mike

Offline redbeerman

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1713
  • On the banks of the mighty Susquehanna
    • View Profile
Re: NHC 2013 Entry Problems - Possible Solutions?
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2013, 11:08:00 AM »
Don't bump the price. That would make the amount you can throw at this a big part of your chances to win.



Kai

+1  Turning it into a rich man's game defeats the purpose IMHO.
CH3CH2OH - Without it, life itself would be impossible.

[441, 112.1deg] AR

Jim

Offline zen_brew

  • 1st Kit
  • *
  • Posts: 20
    • View Profile
Re: NHC 2013 Entry Problems - Possible Solutions?
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2013, 11:23:05 AM »
 Necessity is the mother of invention. Perhaps some good suggestions will rise out of the chaos that was this years registration. I'll throw some random ideas into the pot.

 I think the obvious issue is growth and demand. While the AHA has taken steps to manage growth, the growth in popularity has been explosive. I think the key is in finding ways to increase capacity. In Seattle they are getting ready to host the Comicon comic convention, and expect over 50,000 attendees over 3 days. So that tells us that convention centers can handle much larger crowds then the Homebrewers conference currently draws. I'll give you all of the 50,000+ are likely not staying in hotels for the entire conference, but I bet many are.

 for the NHC the coastal regions max out quickly, as that is where the people are. Perhaps first round can be done in more than one event in the more populated regions.  Instead of doing 750 entries in April, maybe you do a 500-600 entry first round in March, and another one 4 weeks later. You get to double up on the entries. You leave the total entries per brewer capped at whatever 15 entries, or maybe 10. This would also likely make the final round at the NHC a two day judging event. Maybe you can bump the registration to $15 or $20 per entry to allow some nicer incentives to bring in more judges. Maybe offer a separate judges banquet or something like that.

 Maybe you run an east and west coast regional conference before the main conference to slim the entries down to the main NHC. Until there is are some significant increases to capaity, it will be difficult to alleviate the pressures currently being experienced.
Beer is like liquid sunshine, and we need all the sunshine we can get in Seattle.

Do not one day come to die, and discover that you have not lived.

Online Kaiser

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1797
  • Imperial Brewing Geek
    • View Profile
    • braukaiser.com
Re: NHC 2013 Entry Problems - Possible Solutions?
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2013, 11:26:38 AM »
The pre-qualification argument to reduce entries is not a good one.  That's what the first round of this competition is for.  If you want to enter a competition where you have to pre-qualify then google MCAB and proceed from there.

It’s clear that judging resources are limited and won’t grow unless more step up to become judges and donate their time. I think everybody who is not a judge should think about that when arguing against a limit and/or qualifier.

There are a number of competitive events (marathons for example) that are very popular and the organizers had to limit number of entries. The NYC marathon has a lottery and to run in Boston you need to qualify. And that qualification in itself is already an achievement.

As I see it there are only a few fair approaches to entry limitation:
- cap on entries per brewer (people need to choose the beers they want to enter and also limits the amount of money one has to pay to have a shot at winning the competition)
- qualification (that is a good one since it may get more people involved in the local competition scene)
- lottery

The speed of your internet connection or your ability to be online just at the right time should not make a difference in your chances of getting your beers in.

Kai

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 11665
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • View Profile
    • Dennybrew
Re: NHC 2013 Entry Problems - Possible Solutions?
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2013, 11:35:33 AM »
I like the radical idea of 1 beer per membership.

But that potentially means 30K entries.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

Offline udubdawg

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 550
    • View Profile
Re: NHC 2013 Entry Problems - Possible Solutions?
« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2013, 11:39:35 AM »
I like the radical idea of 1 beer per membership.

But that potentially means 30K entries.

make it 1 per person, until whatever limit has been set has been reached.  you still have to be online at the right time or you miss out.  If that limit is not reached after the "Pre-registration" you open it up to anyone (additional entries from members and non-members) to fill it up.

Online Kaiser

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1797
  • Imperial Brewing Geek
    • View Profile
    • braukaiser.com
Re: NHC 2013 Entry Problems - Possible Solutions?
« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2013, 11:39:57 AM »
What about paying  judges.  Raising the entry fee by 100% AND having an entry limit of 5 would still prevent the NHC from being a rich brewer game. If you pay judges you may attract more of them.

Lots of unsolicited comment from me, but maybe one future year I have interest in participating which is why I’m also interested in finding a better entry system.

BTW, our club sponsored one entry per group and we selected the entry that will be sponsored by selecting the best beers during a tasting session at a club meeting. That was a pretty nice idea.

Kai