Author Topic: NHC 2013 Entry Problems - Possible Solutions?  (Read 39056 times)

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: NHC 2013 Entry Problems - Possible Solutions?
« Reply #180 on: March 04, 2013, 07:37:30 AM »
For the folks that want an NHC qualifier round.

Do you want this for the beer or the brewer?

The beer will get different scores depending on the competition. I pointed that out earlier.

The brewer could strike out in an earlier competition, and then do well at the NHC, depending on the above variation. There is also the age of the beer, as some styles will mature, and be at the peak later on.

Or do you want to rate the brewer over many qualifiers? I know a guy who got Midwest Brewer of the year, and he said he probably spent $2000 in entry fees and shipping that year to get that honor. I am not going to do even a fraction of that to qualify for the NHC.
Jeff Rankert
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Offline tmsnyder

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Re: NHC 2013 Entry Problems - Possible Solutions?
« Reply #181 on: March 04, 2013, 07:47:35 AM »
Amanda's number from this year is only $3 per entry?!  My point is two years ago the number was $2 or 3 dollars IIRC.  So it's still the same amount. 

$2300 to judge 750+ beers.  Do-able?  Yes.   Do-able and have happy judges and organizers willing to do it year after year, probably not.  Especially if the ones doing the bulk of the work are unable to get their own entries in.

just fyi, and I apologize for speaking for Amanda, but she is talking about the budget for THIS year. 

my original point is that it appears the budget is bigger than in previous years...

Offline hokerer

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Re: NHC 2013 Entry Problems - Possible Solutions?
« Reply #182 on: March 04, 2013, 08:59:29 AM »
For the folks that want an NHC qualifier round.

Do you want this for the beer or the brewer?

The beer will get different scores depending on the competition. I pointed that out earlier.

The brewer could strike out in an earlier competition, and then do well at the NHC, depending on the above variation. There is also the age of the beer, as some styles will mature, and be at the peak later on.

Or do you want to rate the brewer over many qualifiers? I know a guy who got Midwest Brewer of the year, and he said he probably spent $2000 in entry fees and shipping that year to get that honor. I am not going to do even a fraction of that to qualify for the NHC.

Just like the current 2-round NHC, a 3-round NHC (qualifiers) would be about the beer, not the brewer.  And all the issues you mention above already apply to 2 rounds.
Joe

Offline tmsnyder

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Re: NHC 2013 Entry Problems - Possible Solutions?
« Reply #183 on: March 04, 2013, 09:31:06 AM »
I disagree.  You need the judges to be dedicated to the competition in order to have a large enough judge pool.  Right now, there is little incentive besides 'taking one for the team'. 

As a judge, why would anyone voluntarily give up a whole Saturday and/or Sunday, potentially drive a couple hundred miles, to judge a bunch of beers when he or she couldn't get their entries in before the cap kicked in?

If the judges had the proper incentives, you could hold the competition without artificially imposed limits on entry numbers.  If you had the proper incentives, you'd get more brewers becoming judges. 

The bjcp has an excellent system for people to become judges, and if there were a reward for becoming a judge, such as an early entry period for the NHC, then you'd get more judges vested in the NHC and you could run an unlimited entry competition.  That would truly be a National Homebrew Competition, instead of a "Lucky Enough to get an Entry In Competition"




  But then there is a chance that the competition becomes a competition of judges.

Offline AmandaK

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Re: NHC 2013 Entry Problems - Possible Solutions?
« Reply #184 on: March 04, 2013, 09:41:13 AM »
Amanda,

To judge how many entries?

How much was out of pocket that you had to be reimbursed from AHA?  How happy were you with the reimbursement process?

Did you have to ship back the scoresheets or did the AHA handle that?

I'll get back to you in a month - this is my first time working with the AHA system. I've judged in the final round, but that involved much less paperwork.  ;D

If it were 750 entries, and you didn't have to handle the shipping costs out of that then yes someone should be able to do it for that amount.  The problem seems to be getting enough judge sites volunteering for the task.  I know that after judging our local competition, the last thing I want to do is sit down and judge another huge competition. 

I really like doing comps, so this isn't really an issue for me. I love meeting brewers from all over - and it's definity made me a better brewer because of it. Hell, I'll probably do 6-7 this year if wedding planning doesn't get in the way.

But to host an NHC 1st round site, in which none of us could get our beers entered, for brewers that aren't in our local area, after judging our own local competition, for $3 an entry.....?  That's a tough sell and I, for one, wouldn't take that proposition to my club. 

The AHA would have to provide some form of motivation for taking on the task of being a 1st round judge site.  One cost free and logical incentive would be to allow judges the opportunity to get their beers into the NHC. Judge or steward three flights one year and you get to enter beer in the next year during an early registration period.  Not only would this motivate the existing judge, it would motivate more brewers to become judges; and the lack of willing judges and judging sites seems to be the bottleneck in the NHC.

Good judge 'thank you' gifts are also appreciated by judges, and if provided by the AHA they would benefit from their scale.  For example, for us to order growler coozies as judge gifts, it's several dollars each b/c we're only ordering a few dozen.  For the AHA, if they ordered a few thousand, the cost would be much less. 

All clubs are different, but I know that my club is excited to be able to host a first round site. (And trust me, if I get any more beer related swag, my apartment might just explode! Hahaha.)
Amanda Kertz
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Offline AmandaK

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Re: NHC 2013 Entry Problems - Possible Solutions?
« Reply #185 on: March 04, 2013, 09:47:49 AM »
Right now, there is little incentive besides 'taking one for the team'. 

As a judge, why would anyone voluntarily give up a whole Saturday and/or Sunday, potentially drive a couple hundred miles, to judge a bunch of beers when he or she couldn't get their entries in before the cap kicked in?

Perhaps my club is an anomaly, but we have a handful of members who don't brew that much, don't enter in comps but still come out to every competition to volunteer.

Now that I'm thinking about it, we have one guy who brews every weekend but doesn't even drink... maybe we ARE the weird ones.  ;D
Amanda Kertz
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Offline repo

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Re: NHC 2013 Entry Problems - Possible Solutions?
« Reply #186 on: March 04, 2013, 09:48:25 AM »
It is impossible to have a truly "National" competition when it is illegal for residents from several states to participate. As was said everyone wanting to enter must be able to at some level.

Offline udubdawg

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Re: NHC 2013 Entry Problems - Possible Solutions?
« Reply #187 on: March 04, 2013, 10:04:49 AM »
just last year I drove 180 miles to KC, 180 to Tulsa, 500 (twice) to Denver/Fort Collins, and even 800 miles to Milwaukee to judge.  Dallas, 5 hour drive? - I've done it.  Brewers Cup in Indy, 700 miles? - I've done it.  And of course, I've still got to drive home, pay for hotels, etc.

Some people like to judge.  Very rarely to I have my own beer in said comp. 
"proper incentive" varies from person to person, wouldn't you say?

As a judge, why would anyone voluntarily give up a whole Saturday and/or Sunday, potentially drive a couple hundred miles, to judge a bunch of beers when he or she couldn't get their entries in before the cap kicked in?

If the judges had the proper incentives, you could hold the competition without artificially imposed limits on entry numbers.  If you had the proper incentives, you'd get more brewers becoming judges. 
 

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: NHC 2013 Entry Problems - Possible Solutions?
« Reply #188 on: March 04, 2013, 10:37:36 AM »
For the folks that want an NHC qualifier round.

Do you want this for the beer or the brewer?

The beer will get different scores depending on the competition. I pointed that out earlier.

The brewer could strike out in an earlier competition, and then do well at the NHC, depending on the above variation. There is also the age of the beer, as some styles will mature, and be at the peak later on.

Or do you want to rate the brewer over many qualifiers? I know a guy who got Midwest Brewer of the year, and he said he probably spent $2000 in entry fees and shipping that year to get that honor. I am not going to do even a fraction of that to qualify for the NHC.

Just like the current 2-round NHC, a 3-round NHC (qualifiers) would be about the beer, not the brewer.  And all the issues you mention above already apply to 2 rounds.
I agree with you, but the MCAB type statements do not fit in. If one entry fee fits all rounds, I am in.
Jeff Rankert
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild, AHA Member, BJCP Certified
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Offline tmsnyder

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Re: NHC 2013 Entry Problems - Possible Solutions?
« Reply #189 on: March 04, 2013, 11:49:40 AM »
If there were more judges like you there wouldn't be this problem.  But there aren't,  and there is.

Maybe the incentive isn't an early entry period for the judges.  Maybe it's not good judge gifts, good food, and timely assignment of judge experience points.  Who knows what the answer is?  Whatever it is, it is lacking at this time if the demand for judging far exceeds the supply of willing judges.

For me, I would feel more compelled to help judge the NHC if I were able to have gotten my entries into it.  Because I couldn't due to the entry SNAFU and the cap, there is no way I'm going out of my way to judge it.  I don't believe I'm the only one.


just last year I drove 180 miles to KC, 180 to Tulsa, 500 (twice) to Denver/Fort Collins, and even 800 miles to Milwaukee to judge.  Dallas, 5 hour drive? - I've done it.  Brewers Cup in Indy, 700 miles? - I've done it.  And of course, I've still got to drive home, pay for hotels, etc.

Some people like to judge.  Very rarely to I have my own beer in said comp. 
"proper incentive" varies from person to person, wouldn't you say?

As a judge, why would anyone voluntarily give up a whole Saturday and/or Sunday, potentially drive a couple hundred miles, to judge a bunch of beers when he or she couldn't get their entries in before the cap kicked in?

If the judges had the proper incentives, you could hold the competition without artificially imposed limits on entry numbers.  If you had the proper incentives, you'd get more brewers becoming judges. 
 
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 11:58:12 AM by tmsnyder »

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: NHC 2013 Entry Problems - Possible Solutions?
« Reply #190 on: March 04, 2013, 11:52:18 AM »
Last year I judged Indianapolis and the wife worked as a steward.

This year life has gotten in the way (elder care issues), and we will not be able to go to Zanesville, which is about an hour closer.
Jeff Rankert
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Online mtnrockhopper

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Re: NHC 2013 Entry Problems - Possible Solutions?
« Reply #191 on: March 04, 2013, 12:25:21 PM »
As a judge, why would anyone voluntarily give up a whole Saturday and/or Sunday, potentially drive a couple hundred miles, to judge a bunch of beers when he or she couldn't get their entries in before the cap kicked in?
I'm not sure why someone who felt this way would become a judge at all.
Jimmy K

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Offline denny

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Re: NHC 2013 Entry Problems - Possible Solutions?
« Reply #192 on: March 04, 2013, 01:08:15 PM »
As a judge, why would anyone voluntarily give up a whole Saturday and/or Sunday, potentially drive a couple hundred miles, to judge a bunch of beers when he or she couldn't get their entries in before the cap kicked in?
I'm not sure why someone who felt this way would become a judge at all.

+ a billionty and eleven!  If you need quid pro quo to judge, maybe you should consider why you;re doing it.
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Offline bonjour

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Re: NHC 2013 Entry Problems - Possible Solutions?
« Reply #193 on: March 04, 2013, 02:16:03 PM »
+ a billionty and twelve!
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Offline tmsnyder

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Re: NHC 2013 Entry Problems - Possible Solutions?
« Reply #194 on: March 04, 2013, 02:37:35 PM »
I'm a judge to be a better brewer, and to support the local homebrew community.  I've helped dozens of brewers become judges by administering bjcp exams in Buffalo, NY.  We have something like 6 National ranked judges in our club and dozens of Certified and Recognized.  I have driven hundreds of miles to judge beer, and I probably will again.  And it wasn't quid pro quo, I've always judged _Way_ more beer than I've ever entered.

If you guys don't see a problem with the way the NHC is operating right now, and that it's clearly caused by a lack of willing judges and site organizers, then I'm not sure what planet you're on.  The AHA planet I guess, when you're on the inside the party is great.  Hope your 15 entries do well!




+ a billionty and twelve!