Author Topic: Next Step-Water  (Read 3579 times)

Offline duboman

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Next Step-Water
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2013, 02:05:00 PM »
I'm more concerned with the alkalinity presented by this water.  At 100 ppm as CaCO3, it has the chance to adversely affect any of the lighter beers. 

So in this vain, for lighter beers with my alkalinity at 100 would it be beneficial then to add some acidulated malt to the mash to assist in bringing down the PH?

Can you elaborate a little more on this statement? Particularly what role does alkalinity play on flavor perception.  What role on pH.  Then framing it in context of your worries about lighter beers.  What effect exactly would you be worried about.
Along with the pH problem, the alkalinity will make the light beers taste the opposite of crisp. My Pilsners tasted "muddy" in the finish, not clean and crisp like they do now that I brew with RO and adjust.
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Offline duboman

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Next Step-Water
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2013, 02:11:28 PM »
So then for lighter beers with my water alkalinity being 100 would a little acidulated malt be beneficial in the mash to assist with the pH?
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Next Step-Water
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2013, 03:25:25 PM »
So then for lighter beers with my water alkalinity being 100 would a little acidulated malt be beneficial in the mash to assist with the pH?by
Prabably. Try a test mash with a small weight of the grist and your water before you brew. If it is too high, then formulate the recipe with acidulated malt. Weyermann says 1% will lower the pH 0.1, so start there and see where you end up. Adjust the mash up/down once you measure.
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Offline duboman

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Next Step-Water
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2013, 03:38:47 PM »
So then for lighter beers with my water alkalinity being 100 would a little acidulated malt be beneficial in the mash to assist with the pH?by
Prabably. Try a test mash with a small weight of the grist and your water before you brew. If it is too high, then formulate the recipe with acidulated malt. Weyermann says 1% will lower the pH 0.1, so start there and see where you end up. Adjust the mash up/down once you measure.

Cool, I'm working up a Belgian Wit/white recipe that this will probably be necessary for as I don't anticipate the grist dropping the pH to desirable levels

I'm trying to get something like Allagash White, looks like I might need to use about 5% but that seems like a lot? My normal pH is in the very low 6 range and my regular beers have always gotten me a good pH with out its use.
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Offline wort-h.o.g.

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Re: Next Step-Water
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2013, 04:30:11 PM »
So then for lighter beers with my water alkalinity being 100 would a little acidulated malt be beneficial in the mash to assist with the pH?by
Prabably. Try a test mash with a small weight of the grist and your water before you brew. If it is too high, then formulate the recipe with acidulated malt. Weyermann says 1% will lower the pH 0.1, so start there and see where you end up. Adjust the mash up/down once you measure.

Cool, I'm working up a Belgian Wit/white recipe that this will probably be necessary for as I don't anticipate the grist dropping the pH to desirable levels

I'm trying to get something like Allagash White, looks like I might need to use about 5% but that seems like a lot? My normal pH is in the very low 6 range and my regular beers have always gotten me a good pH with out its use.

A little lactic acid will do the trick. Acid malt will require more than you probably want. Your alkalinity isn't extremely high, and I'd imagine you would only need small amounts (1-2ml) to drop the ph to desired range. Just plug in lactic acid and see how much you need for the amount of water and the recipe.

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Next Step-Water
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2013, 04:56:51 PM »
So then for lighter beers with my water alkalinity being 100 would a little acidulated malt be beneficial in the mash to assist with the pH?by
Prabably. Try a test mash with a small weight of the grist and your water before you brew. If it is too high, then formulate the recipe with acidulated malt. Weyermann says 1% will lower the pH 0.1, so start there and see where you end up. Adjust the mash up/down once you measure.

Cool, I'm working up a Belgian Wit/white recipe that this will probably be necessary for as I don't anticipate the grist dropping the pH to desirable levels

I'm trying to get something like Allagash White, looks like I might need to use about 5% but that seems like a lot? My normal pH is in the very low 6 range and my regular beers have always gotten me a good pH with out its use.
The correct answer is it depends. Water pH means little. Mash pH means a lot.
Jeff Rankert
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Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline duboman

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Next Step-Water
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2013, 05:58:10 PM »
So then for lighter beers with my water alkalinity being 100 would a little acidulated malt be beneficial in the mash to assist with the pH?by
Prabably. Try a test mash with a small weight of the grist and your water before you brew. If it is too high, then formulate the recipe with acidulated malt. Weyermann says 1% will lower the pH 0.1, so start there and see where you end up. Adjust the mash up/down once you measure.

Cool, I'm working up a Belgian Wit/white recipe that this will probably be necessary for as I don't anticipate the grist dropping the pH to desirable levels

I'm trying to get something like Allagash White, looks like I might need to use about 5% but that seems like a lot? My normal pH is in the very low 6 range and my regular beers have always gotten me a good pH with out its use.
The correct answer is it depends. Water pH means little. Mash pH means a lot.

This I know, I'll play with the lactic acid and see where that gets me, thanks to all! A lot to digest and think about...
Peace....Love......Beer......

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Offline duboman

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Next Step-Water
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2013, 03:40:06 PM »
So to update, sort of....
Just did a side by side of my house pale ale, the second with treating the water with 10grams Gypsum and the hop profile is much more pronounced and crisp and I am very pleased with the improvement and the little effort that was required!

Just made one of my favorites even better than it was!
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Offline mabrungard

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Re: Next Step-Water
« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2013, 05:02:04 AM »
There is sort of an anti-sulfate crusade that has been promulgated by a person that only brews European light lagers. Unfortunately, that sentiment has 'bled' into the psyches of other brewers and their quest for great beer.  I can assure you that many styles benefit from varying levels of sulfate in the brewing water. Lately, the lore has been that sulfate enhances bitterness perception (which it does).  However sulfate is actually helping to dry the beer finish (which enhances bitterness perception) and that can be a valuable tool for the brewer to tune their beers.

Certainly, sulfate should be used in moderation. But it should be viewed as an important tool in perfecting your beers. Using it only in hoppy beers may restrict your brewing abilities. Next time you have a recipe that produces a beer that doesn't dry the finish adequately, think about bumping the sulfate content of the water up a bit. An extra 20 ppm may be all you need.

Don't be afraid of sulfate!
« Last Edit: April 20, 2013, 06:22:26 AM by mabrungard »
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Next Step-Water
« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2013, 05:44:04 AM »
There is sort of an anti-sulfate crusade that has been promulgated by a person that only brews European light lagers. Unfortunately, that sentiment has 'bled' into the psyches of other brewers and their quest for great beer.  I can assure you that many styles benefit from varying levels of sulfate in the brewing water. Lately, the lore has been that sulfate enhances bitterness perception (which it does).  However sulfate is actually helping to dry the beer finish (which enhances bitterness perception) and that can be a valuable tool for the brewer to tune their beers.

Certainly, sulfate should be used in moderation. But it should be viewed as an important tool in perfecting your beers. Using it in hoppy beers only may restrict your brewing abilities. Next time you have a recipe that produces a beer that doesn't dry the finish adequately, thinOils out bumping the sulfate content of the water up a bit. An extra 20 ppm may be all you need.

Don't be afraid of sulfate!
I agree, for my German Pils sulfate at about 80 ppm gives the dry lingering finish that I want.
Jeff Rankert
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Offline duboman

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Next Step-Water
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2013, 06:09:03 AM »
There is sort of an anti-sulfate crusade that has been promulgated by a person that only brews European light lagers. Unfortunately, that sentiment has 'bled' into the psyches of other brewers and their quest for great beer.  I can assure you that many styles benefit from varying levels of sulfate in the brewing water. Lately, the lore has been that sulfate enhances bitterness perception (which it does).  However sulfate is actually helping to dry the beer finish (which enhances bitterness perception) and that can be a valuable tool for the brewer to tune their beers.

Certainly, sulfate should be used in moderation. But it should be viewed as an important tool in perfecting your beers. Using it in hoppy beers only may restrict your brewing abilities. Next time you have a recipe that produces a beer that doesn't dry the finish adequately, think about bumping the sulfate content of the water up a bit. An extra 20 ppm may be all you need.

Don't be afraid of sulfate!

Thanks for chiming in. To clarify a bit, the pale Alenin question is actually a low IBU version that I brew but with a lot of very late additions of Amarillo and Simcoe as well as 3oz of dry hop of the same. The first batches, while very good were not giving me the desired flavor and aroma and the bitterness was somewhat subdued.

With the gypsum addition in this batch the beer is definitely more crisp and the flavor and aromas from the late additions are far more pronounced and less muddy.
Peace....Love......Beer......

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Offline denny

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Re: Next Step-Water
« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2013, 10:21:47 AM »
I've never been afraid of sulfate used appropriately, but I've recently become a convert to higher sulfate levels.  I recently doubled the amount of sulfate in my Rye IPA and it made a beer I've always loved even better.
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Offline jimrod

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Re: Next Step-Water
« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2013, 07:43:36 AM »
I've never been afraid of sulfate used appropriately, but I've recently become a convert to higher sulfate levels.  I recently doubled the amount of sulfate in my Rye IPA and it made a beer I've always loved even better.

What would those finished sulfate levels be?  I want to make my Rye IPA better.
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Next Step-Water
« Reply #28 on: April 22, 2013, 08:44:48 AM »
I've never been afraid of sulfate used appropriately, but I've recently become a convert to higher sulfate levels.  I recently doubled the amount of sulfate in my Rye IPA and it made a beer I've always loved even better.

What would those finished sulfate levels be?  I want to make my Rye IPA better.

The current one is 200 ppm and it's great.  I'm gonna go to 250-300 on the next batch.
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Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Next Step-Water
« Reply #29 on: April 22, 2013, 08:50:17 AM »
+1.  Thanks to Martin's feedback, I just bumped my sulfate up to 300ppm on an AIPA, a level I had never used (had used ~200 prior). After trying a small sample, the hop flavor has definitely popped more, which was exactly what I was after.  And I don't notice any overmineralized bite either. Looking forward to the final product.
Jon H.