[tygo]

I've had a couple of MO beers that have turned out with considerable haze in them.  I can't blame the yeast (1469) because I've used it in beers with 100% NA 2-row and they've turned out brilliantly clear.  I'm considering a short protein rest on my next all MO ESB to see if it makes a difference in clarity.

[brewsumore]

Ouch!  I did a protein rest for my currently fermenting Czech Pilsner.  Now of course I wish I wouldn't have, simply to emulate another recipe and because Pilsner Urquell does it.

[denny]

Ouch!  I did a protein rest for my currently fermenting Czech Pilsner.  Now of course I wish I wouldn't have, simply to emulate another recipe and because Pilsner Urquell does it.

IMO, a decision to do a p rest should never be based on a recipe.  It should be based on the specs of the malt you're using.

[Wort-H.O.G.]

Ouch!  I did a protein rest for my currently fermenting Czech Pilsner.  Now of course I wish I wouldn't have, simply to emulate another recipe and because Pilsner Urquell does it.

Have you done a p-rest before- and what was the grain used? I'd be interested to hear your findings when it comes time to drinking this beer...vs one you haven't done the p-rest and if you notice any differences.

Like anything in home brewing, when you read something someone wrote about how to brew, I find myself spending more time considering the source, the date it was written, and then try and figure out if it applies or not. The good thing is its always fun and interesting to just try it out and see what your own personal experiences are.......not everything (some things are) you hear or read is gospel when it comes to brewing.

[hopfenundmalz]

I did a long P-rest for a 100% wheat malt beer. This was to help the run off. It was a Graetzer that had a good head with long retention, and dropped bright.

Depends on the malt being used, usually I don't do one.

[denny]

Like anything in home brewing, when you read something someone wrote about how to brew, I find myself spending more time considering the source, the date it was written, and then try and figure out if it applies or not. The good thing is its always fun and interesting to just try it out and see what your own personal experiences are.......not everything (some things are) you hear or read is gospel when it comes to brewing.

Ken, you have earned the Gold Star of Pragmatism today!  Good on ya!

[Wort-H.O.G.]

Like anything in home brewing, when you read something someone wrote about how to brew, I find myself spending more time considering the source, the date it was written, and then try and figure out if it applies or not. The good thing is its always fun and interesting to just try it out and see what your own personal experiences are.......not everything (some things are) you hear or read is gospel when it comes to brewing.

Ken, you have earned the Gold Star of Pragmatism today!  Good on ya!

nice! i think i will have a home brew to celebrate

[brewsumore]

Ouch!  I did a protein rest for my currently fermenting Czech Pilsner.  Now of course I wish I wouldn't have, simply to emulate another recipe and because Pilsner Urquell does it.

Have you done a p-rest before- and what was the grain used? I'd be interested to hear your findings when it comes time to drinking this beer...vs one you haven't done the p-rest and if you notice any differences.

Like anything in home brewing, when you read something someone wrote about how to brew, I find myself spending more time considering the source, the date it was written, and then try and figure out if it applies or not. The good thing is its always fun and interesting to just try it out and see what your own personal experiences are.......not everything (some things are) you hear or read is gospel when it comes to brewing.

Yeah, I've been brewing for more than 14 years, but 99.5% ales in that time, and generally am pretty darn good at researching prior to engaging a new technique.  However, this time my research was more from the internet in relationship to Pilsner Urquell clones and not enough from my library regarding step mashing.  The fact is, this brew was my first pilsner, and my first infusion step mash.  I wasn't shooting for a purist clone of Pilsner Urquell, just wanted to see if I could imitate it without decoctions, which of course is not possible.  In retrospect, I wish I had done a single infusion mash, since I used well modified malt, Best Premium Pils.

As well as trying to hit the step temps, my goal in step mashing was to end with around 1.85 pounds grain per quart water ratio mash thickness following the last hot liquor infusion.  The recipe I used I found online was stated as taking 2nd place in the 2012 PU Master Homebrewer Comp in NYC, and 1st place in the same comp in 2011.  Here is the thread: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f58/ocas-lishky-pilsner-urquell-clone-333411/ and notice the link in the first post to an article on Phillip Jensen's 2011 win.

and here is my adapted recipe with notes:

03-09-2013  Pilsner Urquell Faux No-Decoction Clone

A ProMash Brewing Session Report
--------------------------------

Brewing Date: Saturday March 09, 2013
Head Brewer:  Steve Smith
Asst Brewer:  none
Recipe:       Pilsner Urquell Faux No-Decoction Clone

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal):        11.00    Wort Size (Gal):  11.00
Total Grain (Lbs):       17.40
Anticipated OG:          1.050    Plato:            12.32
Anticipated SRM:           4.3
Anticipated IBU:          39.6
Brewhouse Efficiency:       84 %
Wort Boil Time:            105    Minutes

Actual OG:  1.046   Plato:
Actual FG:  1.010   

Alc by Weight:  3.71      by Volume:  4.73  From Measured Gravities.
ADF:            77.6      Apparent Degree of Fermentation.

Actual Mash System Efficiency: 81 %
Anticipated Points From Mash:  49.73
Actual Points From Mash:       48.07


Grain/Extract/Sugar

   %     Amount     Name                          Origin        Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 74.7    13.00 lbs. Pilsener                      Germany        1.038      2
  7.5     1.30 lbs. Toasted Pilsener           Germany        1.038      4
  4.3     0.75 lbs. Aromatic Malt                 Belgium        1.036     25
  4.3     0.75 lbs. Rye Malt                      America        1.030      4
  6.3     1.10 lbs. Wheat Malt                    America        1.038      3
  2.9     0.50 lbs. Flaked Oats                   America        1.033      2

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

   Amount     Name                              Form    Alpha  IBU  Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  2.75 oz.    Czech Saaz                        Pellet   3.60   8.5  First WH
  2.75 oz.    Czech Saaz                        Pellet   3.60  23.6  80 min.
  2.75 oz.    Czech Saaz                        Pellet   3.60   7.5  20 min.


Extras

  Amount      Name                           Type      Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
  1.25 Tsp    Wyeast Yeast Nutrient          Other     10 Min.(boil)
  1.50 Unit(s)Whirfloc                       Fining     5 Min.(boil)


Yeast
-----

WYeast 2001 Pilsner Urquell


Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Name: Pilsner Urquell No Decoction

Total Grain Lbs:      17.40
Total Water Qts:      17.10 - Before Additional Infusions
Total Water Gal:       4.28 - Before Additional Infusions

Tun Thermal Mass:      0.00
Grain Temp:              65 F


                     Step   Rest   Start   Stop  Heat     Infuse   Infuse  Infuse
Step Name            Time   Time   Temp    Temp  Type     Temp     Amount  Ratio
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Protein Rest           4     20    120     119   Infuse   131       17.10   0.98
Intermediate Step      4     30    146     145   Infuse   210        8.68   1.48
Sacharification Re     4     10    158     158   Infuse   210        7.32   1.90


Total Water Qts:           33.10 - After Additional Infusions
Total Water Gal:            8.27 - After Additional Infusions
Total Mash Volume Gal:      9.67 - After Additional Infusions

All temperature measurements are degrees Fahrenheit.
All infusion amounts are in Quarts.
All infusion ratios are Quarts/Lbs.


Mash Notes
----------

Dough-in @ 132.5 down to ~120 after stirring but hot spots.  Surprised at e
nd of 20-min period at 124.5F.  After adding 2nd infusion ~144, so added ad
ditional 1/2 gal + 1 qt. boiling water to ~145F.  After 30 min around 145F.
  Next time use smaller cooler for more even heat distribution.  3rd infusi
on = 1.5 gal kept boiling on stove so I could heat sparge water with keggle
 (good move).  after stir ~150 and pH ~5.2 +3.  I added ~ 50 of total phos
phoric and calcium chloride (4 ml + 4 grams respectively) at dough-in and r
emainder at 2nd infusion and that worked well.  After 10 minutes, mash stil
l @ 150F.



Added sparge water a bit too hot with minimal grist, at 192F w
hich took sparge to +171F, and used cooler to knock quickly below 170F. 




Still, my numbers were close to PU #'s which are 127, 143, 163 (mash out)
!! 



Stuck runoff on both mash and sparge, and massaged Bazooka screen w
ith stirrer to drain MT, so ran both runoffs thru fine mesh strainer into k
ettle, and did collect some grain that otherwise would have gone in the ket
tle.  The collection into kettle appeared to be ~14.5 gallons hot (big) so
I extended boil about 20 minutes to ~110 minutes and nailed it for volume w
ith vigorous boil.  Got wort down to 45F which was the groundwater temp.




Considering I didn't hit the 158F final infusion temp, I might not get goo
d body - no dextrins??



I did use 50/50 RO water from Winco and my wat
er.

Fermentation Notes
------------------



Immediately pitched at 45F after 1 min 50 sec o2 and added anti-foam drop
s.  Set thermowell controlled to 45F/cold /1 degree.  Within an hour before
 pitch I decanted 2 liter stirplate starters, popped nutrient packs on seco
nd WY2001 packets and drained each into a starter to help kickstart the yea
st that had sat in fridge overnight.  Left at room temp for a bit then back
 into fridge set @ 40F, then back out again for 15 min prior to pitch.  WY
2001 temp range is listed as 48 - 56F.



The starters I watched since work
ed from home on Friday, and they were good bubbly starters ~ 170F, for tota
l 26 hrs before cool crashed (fully fermented).  They were about 1.036 OG s
tarters.



PU goes 1.048 - 1.015 @ 4.4ABV after 11 days fermentation. fro
m 39F - 48F.  Lager for 35 - 40 days.

Tasting Notes
-------------

wort sample wonderful, with a malt backbone + hops.

Problem Notes
-------------

an excellent brewday = 9 hrs.

Notes
-----

Per original recipe: 

toast small addition pilsner malt for 30 min. at 350 F, and turn e
very 10 min.

50/50 distilled/tap water.

Protein rest at 122 F for 20 min
. then a 12 min ramp to 146 F and held for 30 min. Then a 7 min. ramp to 15
8 F and held for 15 min. Then up to 168 F for a mash out .  Goal is to get
nearly complete conversion at 146 F (for crispness) and then ramp it up to
158 F to get some more dextrins to improve the body.

So, when I did my step mash, my last infusion only brought me to 150F where it stayed for 10 minutes, but I didn't add more boiling water, so as to preserve the grain to water ratio at 1.86 lbs/qt.  I just now did a narrow range hydrometer test on the beer and as expected especially due to the low final rest temp, the beer is at 1.010 on the 8th day of fermentation, but with no krausen on the surface, I assume it is very nearly done fermenting.  So it is well below PU's 1.015 FG, but still has some body and it tastes fantastic.  At this point I doubt it will taste really watery, although who knows what I'll get for head formation.  I probably bought myself a little body by toasting 1.3 lbs of the pilsner malt, hopefully making that malt addition slightly less fermentable like a caramel malt.

My SG was 1.046 with 81% brewhouse efficiency batch sparging.

[andremarron]

brewsumore, how did your clone turn out?

I am planning on brewing this recipe, and I appreciate if you could share how close to the PU the recipe is, and any update/tweak you made, just in case you have perfect it over time.

Thank you.

Ouch!  I did a protein rest for my currently fermenting Czech Pilsner.  Now of course I wish I wouldn't have, simply to emulate another recipe and because Pilsner Urquell does it.

Have you done a p-rest before- and what was the grain used? I'd be interested to hear your findings when it comes time to drinking this beer...vs one you haven't done the p-rest and if you notice any differences.

Like anything in home brewing, when you read something someone wrote about how to brew, I find myself spending more time considering the source, the date it was written, and then try and figure out if it applies or not. The good thing is its always fun and interesting to just try it out and see what your own personal experiences are.......not everything (some things are) you hear or read is gospel when it comes to brewing.

Yeah, I've been brewing for more than 14 years, but 99.5% ales in that time, and generally am pretty darn good at researching prior to engaging a new technique.  However, this time my research was more from the internet in relationship to Pilsner Urquell clones and not enough from my library regarding step mashing.  The fact is, this brew was my first pilsner, and my first infusion step mash.  I wasn't shooting for a purist clone of Pilsner Urquell, just wanted to see if I could imitate it without decoctions, which of course is not possible.  In retrospect, I wish I had done a single infusion mash, since I used well modified malt, Best Premium Pils.

As well as trying to hit the step temps, my goal in step mashing was to end with around 1.85 pounds grain per quart water ratio mash thickness following the last hot liquor infusion.  The recipe I used I found online was stated as taking 2nd place in the 2012 PU Master Homebrewer Comp in NYC, and 1st place in the same comp in 2011.  Here is the thread: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f58/ocas-lishky-pilsner-urquell-clone-333411/ and notice the link in the first post to an article on Phillip Jensen's 2011 win.

and here is my adapted recipe with notes:

03-09-2013  Pilsner Urquell Faux No-Decoction Clone

A ProMash Brewing Session Report
--------------------------------

Brewing Date: Saturday March 09, 2013
Head Brewer:  Steve Smith
Asst Brewer:  none
Recipe:       Pilsner Urquell Faux No-Decoction Clone

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal):        11.00    Wort Size (Gal):  11.00
Total Grain (Lbs):       17.40
Anticipated OG:          1.050    Plato:            12.32
Anticipated SRM:           4.3
Anticipated IBU:          39.6
Brewhouse Efficiency:       84 %
Wort Boil Time:            105    Minutes

Actual OG:  1.046   Plato:
Actual FG:  1.010   

Alc by Weight:  3.71      by Volume:  4.73  From Measured Gravities.
ADF:            77.6      Apparent Degree of Fermentation.

Actual Mash System Efficiency: 81 %
Anticipated Points From Mash:  49.73
Actual Points From Mash:       48.07


Grain/Extract/Sugar

   %     Amount     Name                          Origin        Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 74.7    13.00 lbs. Pilsener                      Germany        1.038      2
  7.5     1.30 lbs. Toasted Pilsener           Germany        1.038      4
  4.3     0.75 lbs. Aromatic Malt                 Belgium        1.036     25
  4.3     0.75 lbs. Rye Malt                      America        1.030      4
  6.3     1.10 lbs. Wheat Malt                    America        1.038      3
  2.9     0.50 lbs. Flaked Oats                   America        1.033      2

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

   Amount     Name                              Form    Alpha  IBU  Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  2.75 oz.    Czech Saaz                        Pellet   3.60   8.5  First WH
  2.75 oz.    Czech Saaz                        Pellet   3.60  23.6  80 min.
  2.75 oz.    Czech Saaz                        Pellet   3.60   7.5  20 min.


Extras

  Amount      Name                           Type      Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
  1.25 Tsp    Wyeast Yeast Nutrient          Other     10 Min.(boil)
  1.50 Unit(s)Whirfloc                       Fining     5 Min.(boil)


Yeast
-----

WYeast 2001 Pilsner Urquell


Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Name: Pilsner Urquell No Decoction

Total Grain Lbs:      17.40
Total Water Qts:      17.10 - Before Additional Infusions
Total Water Gal:       4.28 - Before Additional Infusions

Tun Thermal Mass:      0.00
Grain Temp:              65 F


                     Step   Rest   Start   Stop  Heat     Infuse   Infuse  Infuse
Step Name            Time   Time   Temp    Temp  Type     Temp     Amount  Ratio
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Protein Rest           4     20    120     119   Infuse   131       17.10   0.98
Intermediate Step      4     30    146     145   Infuse   210        8.68   1.48
Sacharification Re     4     10    158     158   Infuse   210        7.32   1.90


Total Water Qts:           33.10 - After Additional Infusions
Total Water Gal:            8.27 - After Additional Infusions
Total Mash Volume Gal:      9.67 - After Additional Infusions

All temperature measurements are degrees Fahrenheit.
All infusion amounts are in Quarts.
All infusion ratios are Quarts/Lbs.


Mash Notes
----------

Dough-in @ 132.5 down to ~120 after stirring but hot spots.  Surprised at e
nd of 20-min period at 124.5F.  After adding 2nd infusion ~144, so added ad
ditional 1/2 gal + 1 qt. boiling water to ~145F.  After 30 min around 145F.
  Next time use smaller cooler for more even heat distribution.  3rd infusi
on = 1.5 gal kept boiling on stove so I could heat sparge water with keggle
 (good move).  after stir ~150 and pH ~5.2 +3.  I added ~ 50 of total phos
phoric and calcium chloride (4 ml + 4 grams respectively) at dough-in and r
emainder at 2nd infusion and that worked well.  After 10 minutes, mash stil
l @ 150F.



Added sparge water a bit too hot with minimal grist, at 192F w
hich took sparge to +171F, and used cooler to knock quickly below 170F. 




Still, my numbers were close to PU #'s which are 127, 143, 163 (mash out)
!! 



Stuck runoff on both mash and sparge, and massaged Bazooka screen w
ith stirrer to drain MT, so ran both runoffs thru fine mesh strainer into k
ettle, and did collect some grain that otherwise would have gone in the ket
tle.  The collection into kettle appeared to be ~14.5 gallons hot (big) so
I extended boil about 20 minutes to ~110 minutes and nailed it for volume w
ith vigorous boil.  Got wort down to 45F which was the groundwater temp.




Considering I didn't hit the 158F final infusion temp, I might not get goo
d body - no dextrins??



I did use 50/50 RO water from Winco and my wat
er.

Fermentation Notes
------------------



Immediately pitched at 45F after 1 min 50 sec o2 and added anti-foam drop
s.  Set thermowell controlled to 45F/cold /1 degree.  Within an hour before
 pitch I decanted 2 liter stirplate starters, popped nutrient packs on seco
nd WY2001 packets and drained each into a starter to help kickstart the yea
st that had sat in fridge overnight.  Left at room temp for a bit then back
 into fridge set @ 40F, then back out again for 15 min prior to pitch.  WY
2001 temp range is listed as 48 - 56F.



The starters I watched since work
ed from home on Friday, and they were good bubbly starters ~ 170F, for tota
l 26 hrs before cool crashed (fully fermented).  They were about 1.036 OG s
tarters.



PU goes 1.048 - 1.015 @ 4.4ABV after 11 days fermentation. fro
m 39F - 48F.  Lager for 35 - 40 days.

Tasting Notes
-------------

wort sample wonderful, with a malt backbone + hops.

Problem Notes
-------------

an excellent brewday = 9 hrs.

Notes
-----

Per original recipe: 

toast small addition pilsner malt for 30 min. at 350 F, and turn e
very 10 min.

50/50 distilled/tap water.

Protein rest at 122 F for 20 min
. then a 12 min ramp to 146 F and held for 30 min. Then a 7 min. ramp to 15
8 F and held for 15 min. Then up to 168 F for a mash out .  Goal is to get
nearly complete conversion at 146 F (for crispness) and then ramp it up to
158 F to get some more dextrins to improve the body.

So, when I did my step mash, my last infusion only brought me to 150F where it stayed for 10 minutes, but I didn't add more boiling water, so as to preserve the grain to water ratio at 1.86 lbs/qt.  I just now did a narrow range hydrometer test on the beer and as expected especially due to the low final rest temp, the beer is at 1.010 on the 8th day of fermentation, but with no krausen on the surface, I assume it is very nearly done fermenting.  So it is well below PU's 1.015 FG, but still has some body and it tastes fantastic.  At this point I doubt it will taste really watery, although who knows what I'll get for head formation.  I probably bought myself a little body by toasting 1.3 lbs of the pilsner malt, hopefully making that malt addition slightly less fermentable like a caramel malt.

My SG was 1.046 with 81% brewhouse efficiency batch sparging.

[goose]

I've heard that Briess Pilsener and possibly another Briess malt are the only not well modified base malts.

Not sure where you heard that.  I am not saying you statement is untrue but I have never had any trouble with Briess malts.  I use a lot of their 2 row and have never done a protein rest.  We used a lot of their Pilsen malt at the brewery I worked for and again never needed a protein rest as both malts were well modified.  If the quality of their malts was suspect, I am sure that they would have been a victim to competition from other malsters years ago.  That said, there are malts from other sources that I use for certain beers that I feel are better for the style, just like a lot of you.

Full disclosure here, I do not work for Briess nor sell their products.  I'm just an old country homebrewer (to coin a phrase).

[hopfenundmalz]

I've heard that Briess Pilsener and possibly another Briess malt are the only not well modified base malts.

Not sure where you heard that.  I am not saying you statement is untrue but I have never had any trouble with Briess malts.  I use a lot of their 2 row and have never done a protein rest.  We used a lot of their Pilsen malt at the brewery I worked for and again never needed a protein rest as both malts were well modified.  If the quality of their malts was suspect, I am sure that they would have been a victim to competition from other malsters years ago.  That said, there are malts from other sources that I use for certain beers that I feel are better for the style, just like a lot of you.

Full disclosure here, I do not work for Briess nor sell their products.  I'm just an old country homebrewer (to coin a phrase).

I had to look on the Briess site. The only one that looks like it could be undermodified is the Goldpils Vienna with an S/T of 35. The Pilsen malt is at 37, maybe a little low.

I know S/T  doesn't tell everything, but it is a quick reference.

[Robert]

Neither of those Briess malts is under modified.  After all, their target customer is the craft and home brewer doing infusion mashes. The numbers don't tell everything it's true.  Modification during germination can continue well after measured S/T has reached a plateau and stops going up.  And 37 would be considered fully modified by traditional definition anyway.  If you want an under modified malt of the ole timey type, you'll have to get someone to custom make it for you.

[BrewBama]

Possibly the malt he referenced changed within 6 yrs?  That would be interesting


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Robert]

The Goldpils Vienna is a newer product, introduced around the time they dropped 6 row (2015.)  The numbers on the Pilsen haven't changed.  But Briess have always recommended it for single temperature infusions.  I think it's the possibly misleading Kolbach index that is at the root of this.  Palmer, in his first book, seems to have taken this as proof of under modification in Briess Pilsen, and said you should do a protein rest with it.  And lo, there it was, engraved in stone for all the homebrew world.

The trick with the Kolbach index (S/T) as I understand it is that, there comes a point during germination where new nitrogenous substances start to be produced.   Thus as more insoluble material is solubilized, it is simultaneously replaced, and the measured S/T flatlines.   But modification, and total levels of those compounds, continue to increase.

[dmtaylor]

Undermodified malt cannot be bought.  Not available anyplace.  I've looked (at least a few years ago I did).

Nice resurrect to get this forum moving again.  We needed a good kick in the pants.