Author Topic: protein rest..why, why not, and when....myth buster out there???  (Read 12922 times)

Offline kramerog

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Re: protein rest..why, why not, and when....myth buster out there???
« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2019, 10:16:00 PM »
The Goldpils Vienna is a newer product, introduced around the time they dropped 6 row (2015.)  The numbers on the Pilsen haven't changed.  But Briess have always recommended it for single temperature infusions.  I think it's the possibly misleading Kolbach index that is at the root of this.  Palmer, in his first book, seems to have taken this as proof of under modification in Briess Pilsen, and said you should do a protein rest with it.  And lo, there it was, engraved in stone for all the homebrew world.

The trick with the Kolbach index (S/T) as I understand it is that, there comes a point during germination where new nitrogenous substances start to be produced.   Thus as more insoluble material is solubilized, it is simultaneously replaced, and the measured S/T flatlines.   But modification, and total levels of those compounds, continue to increase.

This is what Yakima Valley Hops says about Briess Pilsener: "This malt is slightly under-modified - it still works with a single infusion mash, but for those interested in going the extra mile, it's a great candidate for a decoction mash schedule as well."https://www.yakimavalleyhops.com/product_p/grbriesspilsenmalt1lb.htm. https://www.northmountainsupply.com/briess-pilsen-malt-50-lb-bag.html?category_id=50 says something similar.

I'm pretty sure that when I talked about Briess being under modified originally my source was Briess directly. 

I'm just the messenger!  Don't shoot me if Briess is being a little too cute!

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: protein rest..why, why not, and when....myth buster out there???
« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2019, 10:21:59 PM »
I'm pretty sure that when I talked about Briess being under modified originally my source was Briess directly. 

I'm just the messenger!  Don't shoot me if Briess is being a little too cute!

Briess does indeed insist that some of their malt is a little undermodified.

BUT.... it just isn't true.  I wouldn't say it's "undermodified", but rather it is "SLIGHTLY less well modified than many other malts" -- that would sort of be true.
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Online Robert

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Re: protein rest..why, why not, and when....myth buster out there???
« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2019, 10:42:44 PM »
I see that the DP of the Pilsen and Brewers Malt are identical at 140 Lintner.  That crazy level of enzymes indicates full modification.  Goldpils and the Pale Ale are lower at around 80-85, but nearly identical, and what you'd expect from a fully modified, American malt kilned to that kind of color. 

Sure, you can decoct anything you want.  Do you need to?  Is it beneficial?  Seriously doubt it.  And decoction doesn't actually imply a protein rest either.  Hochkurz programs are often done with a decoction to raise from  beta to alpha or to mash off.  So Briess saying "you can decoct this" is really meaningless.   But I'm sure it makes them sound über cool.

EDIT deleted ramblings

« Last Edit: April 12, 2019, 02:38:09 AM by Robert »
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: protein rest..why, why not, and when....myth buster out there???
« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2019, 03:01:24 AM »
Neither of those Briess malts is under modified.  After all, their target customer is the craft and home brewer doing infusion mashes. The numbers don't tell everything it's true.  Modification during germination can continue well after measured S/T has reached a plateau and stops going up.  And 37 would be considered fully modified by traditional definition anyway.  If you want an under modified malt of the ole timey type, you'll have to get someone to custom make it for you.
I thought you would comment, so that explains my last line.

I recently used Weyermann Barke Pils, one of their lower S/T malts. It made one of the clearest Pilsners I've ever brewed.
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Offline BrewBama

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protein rest..why, why not, and when....myth buster out there???
« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2019, 11:35:18 AM »

I recently used Weyermann Barke Pils, one of their lower S/T malts. It made one of the clearest Pilsners I've ever brewed.

I also recently used Barke Pils and had issues with unterteig causing recirculation problems.  Based on this, I believe the Barke Pils may be at least less modified to the point of a breakdown resulting in that gummy bottom layer.

I also used Melanoidin and Acidulated malts in the grist. My mill setting was my standard setting I’ve used with great success.  I did run off a bit faster in the beginning than I planned to but not sure it was the cause.

Edit: here’s the spec sheet: https://p14.zdusercontent.com/attachment/229048/4l7nQYW0ljpRzPUEQ6Yo7CN8L?token=eyJhbGciOiJkaXIiLCJlbmMiOiJBMTI4Q0JDLUhTMjU2In0..Egku_qPYREhh5NagyBQA4w.0lkbIcWOAsYSdX7eDYGMEVfAbeXSIOqP6KqVJynNkDfGCQGzrJzwrstpUXvmJ_D_8uYlj2lWDQB2l-iELWL2-xHI4KqWELB3HvWUrbbwdxGsPiRrl_opqcj2NP6puB_kK6zHhstxwV3iX7L9I1AoIfMDokWS0M_do9E0_KCB9Vt_2wis11PxJrq4jZvc_FqaZKfASlG4-3sQ-q0oVfV4EHWggotjgR-Sjwhdg7N2yhDthy3MAi5CmIiwh1w-0TMr4kQZbL0c2p2oChsjZS_WLg.5jRZi0azADOFYMyoXs-GGA

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« Last Edit: April 12, 2019, 04:45:03 PM by BrewBama »
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Offline narcout

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Re: protein rest..why, why not, and when....myth buster out there???
« Reply #35 on: April 12, 2019, 05:27:26 PM »
Undermodified malt cannot be bought.  Not available anyplace.  I've looked (at least a few years ago I did).

Mecca Grade sells a malt they bill as being wind dried and undermodified.   I don't know if the specs bear that out, but you can check them out for yourself here:

https://www.meccagrade.com/collections/foundation-malt/products/gateway
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: protein rest..why, why not, and when....myth buster out there???
« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2019, 06:52:28 PM »
Undermodified malt cannot be bought.  Not available anyplace.  I've looked (at least a few years ago I did).

Mecca Grade sells a malt they bill as being wind dried and undermodified.   I don't know if the specs bear that out, but you can check them out for yourself here:

https://www.meccagrade.com/collections/foundation-malt/products/gateway

Cool.  I'd be interested to see the spec sheet on that, maybe try a decoction batch with it sometime.  Better yet, do another side-by-side experiment single infuse vs. decoct to see what it does.  Thanks.
Dave

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Online Robert

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Re: protein rest..why, why not, and when....myth buster out there???
« Reply #37 on: April 12, 2019, 07:13:51 PM »
This whole thread has got me thinking.  It's time to go back to the very beginning and relisten to every MBAA podcast with Joe Hertrich. There've  been  a lot of them.  Super enlightening stuff.   
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