Author Topic: build water from distilled  (Read 2407 times)

Offline jimrod

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build water from distilled
« on: March 27, 2013, 06:38:20 AM »
I recently listened to an old podcast from Basic Brewing Radio and they did an experiment using water built from R.O. specifically for stouts (dark beers) and one specifically for pale ales (light colored beers). They also brewed the pale ale with the stout water and vice versa. The results were that these beers didn't taste nearly as good when they were brewed with the wrong water.

My question is,  where can I go to find help building a water from R.O. for a particular type of beer?
Are there published standard formulas for water additions for each style of beer?
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Offline davidgzach

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Re: build water from distilled
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2013, 06:44:43 AM »
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

Also, read Designing Great Beers by Ray Daniels.

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Offline blatz

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Re: build water from distilled
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2013, 06:49:46 AM »
+1 to dave - Martin's sheet is so good (I build from RO) i feel like I am brewing the best beer of my life, and frankly i wonder why I have a pH meter anymore - but I check the pH from time to time just for posterity's sake.
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Online hopfenundmalz

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Re: build water from distilled
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2013, 07:05:12 AM »
John Palmer had a talk at an NHC where he had a Pale and Stout brewed both ways. Very big difference in the beers. Was Palmer the guy on the podcast?
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Offline jimrod

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Re: build water from distilled
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2013, 07:05:33 AM »
Are there published standard formulas for water additions for each style of beer?
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Online hopfenundmalz

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Re: build water from distilled
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2013, 07:14:18 AM »
Are there published standard formulas for water additions for each style of beer?
Not standard. Download Brunwater and Martin has done the homework for profiles that work with a given beer style. It is one the Water Adjustment page in a pull down. It is in the form of "Yellow Bitter" or "Dark Malty", so you need to know what you want for your beer.
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Re: build water from distilled
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2013, 08:02:53 AM »
You see a lot of people trying to target the water profile of certain locations for certain styles (e.g. Burton, Pilsen) which isn't always the right technique. Certainly the water of an area contributed to the selection of preferred style and ingredients in a given location (at least for European brewing) but you can't just assume that the water profile is perfect for a given style. Often brewing water is adjusted by salt additions or techniques to make the water appropriate for the beers brewed in the area. It's ok to use those geographically-based water profiles as long as you know what additional adjustments need to be made for the water.

The easier route is to use those standard profiles in brunwater and make adjustments from there once you have a good understanding of the brewing salts.
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Offline dzlater

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Re: build water from distilled
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2013, 03:57:37 AM »
Are there published standard formulas for water additions for each style of beer?

 I've had the same question. Seems to me if R/O water is all the same , it would be easy to come up with standard additions for different beer styles ?
  If two people use BrunWater to design a water for a stout using 100% R/O water, won't they get the same results?
  So why not just say make a list of additions to R/O water for different beer styles?

Offline jimrod

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Re: build water from distilled
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2013, 04:36:29 AM »
exactly
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Re: build water from distilled
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2013, 05:23:45 AM »
Are there published standard formulas for water additions for each style of beer?

 I've had the same question. Seems to me if R/O water is all the same , it would be easy to come up with standard additions for different beer styles ?
  If two people use BrunWater to design a water for a stout using 100% R/O water, won't they get the same results?
  So why not just say make a list of additions to R/O water for different beer styles?
If the stout had the same grain bill then it would work with high accuracy. But there are different stouts, Dry to RIS, with different amounts of crystal malt and dark grain. Even in the same subcategory there can be differences in the grain bill. One could plug the stout recipes into Brunwater and see the difference in adjustments required. I could do it, you could do it.

Even with Brunwater I still check my mash pH. There are differences in malts. Martin has posted that Rahr 2-row gives a more acidic mash, and one needs to compensate for that.
Jeff Rankert
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Offline mmitchem

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Re: build water from distilled
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2013, 05:27:50 AM »
Martin's sheet is so good (I build from RO) i feel like I am brewing the best beer of my life...

+1 - The flavor of different components of my beer has really been able to shine through as a result of using Martin's calculator. The beer has never tasted better.

With that said it has definitely helped me to learn about the reactions that take place when you add the different salts to your brewing liquor or mash. I learned a lot about these reactions from reading articles on Kai's site, especially this one:

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Residual_Alkalinity_illustrated

Cheers!
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Offline mabrungard

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Re: build water from distilled
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2013, 05:28:39 AM »
Are there published standard formulas for water additions for each style of beer?

 I've had the same question. Seems to me if R/O water is all the same , it would be easy to come up with standard additions for different beer styles ?
  If two people use BrunWater to design a water for a stout using 100% R/O water, won't they get the same results?
  So why not just say make a list of additions to R/O water for different beer styles?

There are sort of recommendations for additions, but each brewer's preference is likely different.  That is the Brewer's Art.  I've included my interpretations of additions as part of Bru'n Water, but that is just a starting point.  One point that is quite important is that brewers should avoid excessive additions since they tend to produce minerally or harsh flavor in beer.  In most styles, let the malt and hops shine, not the water.  I'm thinking of a parallel to the "children should be seen and not heard" for water...maybe 'water should be supporting and not overbearing"? 
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Offline dzlater

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Re: build water from distilled
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2013, 10:47:45 AM »
I am sure I am over simplifying this, but what I don't understand
I look at the water profile adjustment tab in Bru'n Water
Select 100% R/O water.
Set the "Desired Water Profile" as Burton
Then I am supposed to input different mineral additions to hit that profile?
I am sure someone has done this already?
So just tell me what to add to hit that profile?

Offline mmitchem

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Re: build water from distilled
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2013, 10:51:44 AM »
I am sure I am over simplifying this, but what I don't understand
I look at the water profile adjustment tab in Bru'n Water
Select 100% R/O water.
Set the "Desired Water Profile" as Burton
Then I am supposed to input different mineral additions to hit that profile?
I am sure someone has done this already?
So just tell me what to add to hit that profile?

Seems like you have a grasp on how to manipulate the software. Start plugging in values.

What you need to understand is that you should be targeting a certain mash pH, not mineral additions. Once you add in the grain, which will vary, it is a whole different ball of wax. Anyone can make the numbers match up, or at least somewhat closely match up, to what a city water report says.

As a starting point, plug in the grain bill and the water you are starting with. Start adding stuff to get the mash pH where you need it. Then start checking out the Sulfate to Chloride ratio to give it a round or sharp edge flavor-wise.

Isn't all that in the instructions?
« Last Edit: March 28, 2013, 10:57:19 AM by mmitchem »
Michael P Mitchem
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Offline morticaixavier

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Re: build water from distilled
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2013, 01:22:44 PM »
I am sure I am over simplifying this, but what I don't understand
I look at the water profile adjustment tab in Bru'n Water
Select 100% R/O water.
Set the "Desired Water Profile" as Burton
Then I am supposed to input different mineral additions to hit that profile?
I am sure someone has done this already?
So just tell me what to add to hit that profile?

what you are looking for is the missing piece in many beer recipes. Unless one is slightly obsessive about water one does not usually include all the nuances of their water report and additions with a recipe. So you could look specifically for recipes that DO specify water report data and copy those recipes. This would be the equivelant of going to the Joy of Cooking and following one of their recipes to the letter.

Or, if you are designing your own recipes, you can look on fiddling with the water as part of the development process. YOUR recipe will include the specific water information that makes it YOUR recipe.
"Creativity is the residue of wasted time" - A. Einstein

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