[Rhoobarb]

The color alone makes me want to brew this!  Looks and sounds awesome. I assume the acid malt is to drop your pH.  I have such soft water that I am in the unusual position of having to UP my pH.  I'll probably drop the acid malt and add more base malt.  Thanks for sharing!  This will probably be fantastic on our hot Georgia afternoons in late July!

[duboman]

The color alone makes me want to brew this!  Looks and sounds awesome. I assume the acid malt is to drop your pH.  I have such soft water that I am in the unusual position of having to UP my pH.  I'll probably drop the acid malt and add more base malt.  Thanks for sharing!  This will probably be fantastic on our hot Georgia afternoons in late July!

hey Rhoobarb,
The large amoint of acidulated malt was actually used to sour the mash by dropping the pH.

A small amount was used to drop initial pH, the rest was used at the end of the mash to drop thr pH to around 3.5. At the time I had no experience using bacteria to make a sour wort and was nervous so I thought I would try with the malt as noted at the bottom of the recipe.

In all the initial beer turned out well but having received good feedback some changes are in the mix for the next batch as follows.

Gypsum will be removed as it brought out too much hop presence detracting from the beer. A traditional sour wort process using lacto will be employed to get a true sourness(in the yeast and ferm forum I inquired sbout this and will follow that process). The rest will be about the same but perhaps bumping the salt up to 25 grams since the beer will be more sour.

When judged the comments advised it needed to be more sour and the bright hop presence needed to be toned down , hence the changes noted. If you brew this I'd love to hear how yours turns out!

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[Pinski]

Well done! That looks like a fantastic beer. I can really see the salt and hibiscus working really nicely together.

[pmcint01]

I'm going to give this recipe a go.  I would love to see/try you new recipe if you don't mind sharing that.

Thanks.

[HoosierBrew]

Yeah, that is a pretty interesting sounding beer. The hibiscus itself is already pretty tart, and then you throw in the lacto element - sounds tasty.

[duboman]

So here is the second iteration I put together based upon everything I have garnered to date:

Note: The Hibiscus goes in at flame out and is basically steeped for 30 minutes, then whirlpool, YMMV. It lends an Watermelon type color and amazing floral aroma to the finished product. I do not bag the hibiscus but your set up may require this

Be sure to note my odd batch size and the recipe is calculated at 80% which is my set ups standard, YMMV

See the note at the bottom as to the prescribed souring wort process I plan on using for this batch. This method was provided in this forum so thanks for that!

I plan on a 60 minute boil, even with the pilsner malt as I have never had any DMS issues in my process but again, YMMV so plan accordingly.

For water I will simply balance with proper lactic acid addition to achieve desired pH for mash based on my water supply, your's may differ as well. Perhaps some calcium chloride. I have not yet run this through Bru'n Water yet so I am just not sure yet.

I ferment my 1007 typically at 58F, raise to 65 to finish and then lager for 2 weeks typically.

I plan on brewing this in a couple weeks and will report back, if you give this a try I would love to hear your results, my first batch was a very good beer, I anticipate these changes and proper sour method to greatly improve this!

Here ya go!
Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 9.02 gal
Post Boil Volume: 7.02 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 6.25 gal   
Bottling Volume: 6.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.052 SG
Estimated Color: 5.2 SRM
Estimated IBU: 12.4 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 86.4 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt                   Name                                     Type          #        %/IBU         
1 lbs                 Rice Hulls (0.0 SRM)                     Adjunct       1        8.5 %         
5 lbs 8.0 oz          Wheat (3.0 SRM)                          Grain         2        46.8 %       
3 lbs 4.0 oz          Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM)            Grain         3        27.7 %       
2 lbs                 Munich Malt (9.0 SRM)                    Grain         4        17.0 %       
1.00 oz               Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.00 %] - Boil  Hop           5        12.4 IBUs     
0.31 tsp              Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 mins)              Fining        6        -             
0.50 tbsp             Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 mins)          Other         7        -             
25.00 g               Sea Salt (Boil 5.0 mins)                 Other         8        -             
2.00 g                Coriander Seed (Boil 5.0 mins)           Spice         9        -             
45.00 g               Hibiscus Flower-Dried (Boil 0.0 mins)    Spice         10       -             
1.0 pkg               German Ale (Wyeast Labs #1007) [124.21 m Yeast         11       -   Yeast calc for proper starter size         
1.0 pkg               Lactobacillus (Wyeast Labs #5335) [50.28 Yeast         12       -             


Mash Schedule: Double Infusion, Light Body
Total Grain Weight: 11 lbs 12.0 oz
----------------------------
Name              Description                             Step Temperat Step Time     
Protein Rest      Add 2.89 gal of water at 131.2 F        122.0 F       30 min       
Saccharification  Add 2.35 gal of water at 185.9 F        148.0 F       30 min       
Mash Out          Add 2.64 gal of water at 211.7 F        168.0 F       10 min       

Sparge: Fly sparge with 2.79 gal water at 168.0 F
Notes:
------




For Second Iteration: Souring process:
1. Mash as normal.
2. Lauter/Sparge into your boil kettle as normal
3. Bring the wort to 170F and hold for approximately 5 minutes. This will ensure that you kill all bacteria and yeast present on the grain and in the wort.
4. Cool wort to 70-80F and transfer to a fermentor. I use a dedicated sour PET fermentor.
5. Pitch pure lacto culture. No starter required. I have done starter and sans starter methods, neither sour the beer much quicker than just pitching a straight lacto vial in the wort. Again, personal preference on lacto starter.
6. Sour for 1-3 days depending on taste and if you have a pH meter, the pH. Personally, I find the sweet spot around 36-48 hours. I don't use a pH meter. If going by taste be sure you take into account the relative sourness as the wort is still very sweet. It is going to taste more sour post yeast fermentation.
7. Transfer the soured wort back to your boil kettle and proceed as normal

[pmcint01]

In your original recipe you say to conduct the mash then add the acid malt and conduct another mash for 30 minutes.  Are you draining out the first mash water before adding the acid malt?  What temp should you maintain with the acid malt?

Thanks

[duboman]

In your original recipe you say to conduct the mash then add the acid malt and conduct another mash for 30 minutes.  Are you draining out the first mash water before adding the acid malt?  What temp should you maintain with the acid malt?

Thanks

no, the first mash was done traditiinally and held, the acid malt was added after the 60 minutes to drop the pH in a means to sour and held, then drained and sparged.

The original recipe produced a good beer but not sour enough, the concern being that more acid malt would have produced a acid type off flavor above a tolersble threshold.

The next iteration im planning in the next week or two will be soured according to the second recipe/lacto process I updated

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[bobo1898]

I plan on brewing this in a couple weeks and will report back, if you give this a try I would love to hear your results, my first batch was a very good beer, I anticipate these changes and proper sour method to greatly improve this!

I know I'm two years late, but I was curious how this compared to using the acidulated malt? Was your lacto souring method more successful?

[duboman]

I plan on brewing this in a couple weeks and will report back, if you give this a try I would love to hear your results, my first batch was a very good beer, I anticipate these changes and proper sour method to greatly improve this!

I know I'm two years late, but I was curious how this compared to using the acidulated malt? Was your lacto souring method more successful?

Turned out way better than just using acidulated malt!

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[bobo1898]

Turned out way better than just using acidulated malt!

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Awesome....how long did you let it sit?

[duboman]

Turned out way better than just using acidulated malt!

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Awesome....how long did you let it sit?

3 days at 90oF, pH dropped to 4.0, nice and tart

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[bobo1898]

Just mashed this yesterday with your lacto method. I've never brewed with lactobacillus and was curious if I should expect airlock activity, or typical fermentation activity in the carboy? It's been just over 12 hours and I don't see much going on in the fermenter.

I don't have the ability to hold the temp as high as you suggested. I pitched at 110 degrees and figured it would naturally drop over the three days. I assume that because my temp will stabilize at 70 degrees, it might take a little longer for the pH to drop?

[duboman]

Just mashed this yesterday with your lacto method. I've never brewed with lactobacillus and was curious if I should expect airlock activity, or typical fermentation activity in the carboy? It's been just over 12 hours and I don't see much going on in the fermenter.

I don't have the ability to hold the temp as high as you suggested. I pitched at 110 degrees and figured it would naturally drop over the three days. I assume that because my temp will stabilize at 70 degrees, it might take a little longer for the pH to drop?

I've not noticed much if any airlock activity or even a drop in gravity with the Lacto, at the lower temp it might take a few days for the pH to drop, a pH of about 4 is a really nice place to be for a tart Gose.

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[bobo1898]

I've not noticed much if any airlock activity or even a drop in gravity with the Lacto, at the lower temp it might take a few days for the pH to drop, a pH of about 4 is a really nice place to be for a tart Gose.

Yeah it seems like some people have activity and some do not.

Just needed a little patience. Just before the 24 hour mark, activity was visible---thin krausen on the top, bubbling, etc. Oddly enough around 75-80 degrees.

I actually split boil volume into two carboys (fermenter not big enough for boil volume). pH in one is around 3.8 and the second one is at 4. Going to combine the two again and boil this tomorrow.

Looking for a pH of 3.6 or 3.7 so hopefully it stays above 3.5! Thanks for the help!