Author Topic: Beverage line length ?  (Read 3448 times)

Offline aschecte

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Beverage line length ?
« on: April 20, 2013, 07:26:32 PM »

Ok This may be a newb question but, I have been brewing now for appx 15 years and finally yes finally made a Keezer build and it came out beautiful if I do say so myself. My problem is this I am having a huge problem with foaming. I have done some research and now understand the principle of restriction of flow based on diameter of tube at "x" psi at "x" temperature but in all practicality it has not helped a bit and I still have foaming problems. To be more specific I am running 3/16" bevflex 200 tube at 12' and at 37-40 degrees and that should have enough resistance to overcome 10 psi of regulator pressure. What am I doing wrong here ? As it stands I need to pour appx. 3 times and wait for the head to go down each time until my glass is full. No one should ever have to wait for a full glass of home brew right  : ) ?  thanks for any help you can give I really appreciate it !!! cheers !!
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Offline Tim Thomssen

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Re: Beverage line length ?
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2013, 08:05:23 PM »
I use 10 foot of 3/16 I.D. line and get a nice pour, 12 should work great.

Do you have a fan inside to keep the air circulated?  Could be temperature stratifacation inside the unit, leaving the lines on top a bit warmer, which would cause foam.

Offline tom

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Re: Beverage line length ?
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2013, 08:18:08 PM »
How do you carbonate the kegs?
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Offline aschecte

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Re: Beverage line length ?
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2013, 08:56:59 AM »
How do you carbonate the kegs?

I use a Co2 regulator attached to each keg..... I do not do fast force carbs I usually will set the regulator to the desired volume of co2 then give it 2-3 weeks at that psi before serving.
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Offline tschmidlin

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Re: Beverage line length ?
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2013, 03:11:03 PM »
How fast does the beer come out?  Look in the line, is it liquid or foam?  Does it change from liquid to foam at any point between the keg and the shank?  How much of the shank sticks into the keezer?
Tom Schmidlin

Offline aschecte

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Re: Beverage line length ?
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2013, 04:51:53 PM »
How fast does the beer come out?  Look in the line, is it liquid or foam?  Does it change from liquid to foam at any point between the keg and the shank?  How much of the shank sticks into the keezer?

The beer/foam comes out fast I mean really fast.... as to the looking at the lines it is beer in the line but a combination of foam/beer as it pours into the glass. To the shank question a good 75% is inside the collar and insulation as they are 4" shanks. I am fairly confident this is a length / lack of restriction issue I just don't know how to calculate the amount of resistance per foot I need in order to overcome the psi of the regulator. I also must eat my words I looked today at my bevflex 200 line which I thought was 3/16" and it is not it is 1/4" ID tube 7/16" OD and it is only appx 5-6' long per tap. this all pretty much supports the lines do not offer enough resistance to counter the pressure.
don't worry I'll drink it !!

Offline Thirsty_Monk

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Re: Beverage line length ?
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2013, 05:35:03 PM »
Now you answered your question.
1 ft of 3/16 tubing will give you about 3 psi drop per 1ft of tubing.
5 ft of 3/16 tubing should be enough.
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Offline tschmidlin

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Re: Beverage line length ?
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2013, 09:10:39 PM »
Yeah, as Thirsty_Monk says, you either need to swap it for 3/16" or get more 1/4".  The 1/4" stuff only restricts about 0.65 psi/ft (according to morebeer) and the 3/16" restricts 2.2 psi/ft (morebeer).
Tom Schmidlin

Offline aschecte

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Re: Beverage line length ?
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2013, 07:10:47 PM »
Just a fyi as I did change my lines today...... I went a little more than most people recommended and went with 10 feet of 3/16" at 10psi at 40 degrees. Oh My God what a huge difference !!!! I can actually pour a full pint with no issues !! if anything I feel I could probably even trim back a foot or two and still be completely fine. I also noticed that more "bubbles" remain in the beer now as well, the head is not as insane or rocky but the carbonation stays in solution and there is definitely still a head there though it dissipates more quickly now.... either way I'm a much happier brewer as of today !!! Thanks for the advice.
 :)
« Last Edit: April 25, 2013, 07:12:29 PM by aschecte »
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Offline Thirsty_Monk

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Re: Beverage line length ?
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2013, 05:38:49 PM »
At 40F you could go to 12 psi and still be OK.
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On Tap At The TapRoom:
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Bohemian Dark Lager
Smoked Bock
MaiBock
American Brown Ale
Marzen
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Offline aschecte

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Re: Beverage line length ?
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2013, 06:07:25 AM »
At 40F you could go to 12 psi and still be OK.

It's funny you say this ...... I noticed at 10 PSI the beer poured great but a bit too slow and the head suffered as well and I would have to pour center glass the entire way to get any foamy head at all. So I bumped my PSI to 12 already and it pours better and the head is almost perfect. I was toying with the idea of going even a bit higher.


here's another million dollar question..... I keep my co2 tank inside the keezer and I know that co2 at low temps is in more of a gaseous state therefore the gas reads when full at only appx 600 psi...... under the same thinking does the output to the kegs need to be adjusted for as well. What I mean by this is outside the keezer the tank would read 800 psi or so and then the calc would be 10 psi = 2.4 volumes of co2 at 40 degrees. Using the same formula but moving the co2 tank inside the keezer and it only reading a compressed 600 psi to get 2.4 volumes of co2 = "x" for the output to the keg itself to achieve the same volumes of co2.

There is a article in this months zymurgy on page 15 May/June 2013 addressing this and the professor seems to be saying that yes there needs to be a increased pressure if the co2 tank is kept colder as the co2 canister is at a decreased pressure but from what I see there are no calculations to formulate the exact pressures ..... this is not exactly true there are formulas based on the theory of ideal gas law, but this honestly is way over my head can someone simplify this ?  Any one able to chime in on this one ?  Thanks !!!
« Last Edit: May 06, 2013, 06:11:38 AM by aschecte »
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Offline tschmidlin

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Re: Beverage line length ?
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2013, 09:41:57 AM »
No, putting the tank in the fridge will not affect the keg.  It affects the CO2 tank in that there will be less pressure at the high pressure gauge (pv=nrt).  I find it affects the low pressure gauge in that it is slower to respond to changes, but once it is set it is fine.
Tom Schmidlin

Offline aschecte

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Re: Beverage line length ?
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2013, 07:42:56 PM »
No, putting the tank in the fridge will not affect the keg.  It affects the CO2 tank in that there will be less pressure at the high pressure gauge (pv=nrt).  I find it affects the low pressure gauge in that it is slower to respond to changes, but once it is set it is fine.

Excellent so bottom line it only effects the tank itself and the associated pressure gauge reading but, if I set the gauge for 12psi to the keg it is delivering a true 12 psi and I don't need to compensate for the tanks reduced pressure ? I think I understand what your saying its just for some reason in my mind I keep thinking if the tanks pressure is reduced it cannot be delivering a true "psi" to the kegs as the gas is already for lack of a better term compressed. I trust your response it's just in still having a hard time wrapping my head around it.
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Offline tschmidlin

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Re: Beverage line length ?
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2013, 12:14:29 AM »
All that happens is that the pressure in the tank will be a bit lower, but way over 12 psi.  If it drops from 600 psi to 500 psi in the fridge it's not a problem.  The gauge drops the pressure, if you set it to 12 psi and if the tank has something 12 psi or higher, you'll get 12 psi to your keg.  It doesn't matter if the tank is 13 psi, 100 psi, or whatever.
Tom Schmidlin

Offline Thirsty_Monk

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Re: Beverage line length ?
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2013, 07:32:48 PM »
All that happens is that the pressure in the tank will be a bit lower, but way over 12 psi.  If it drops from 600 psi to 500 psi in the fridge it's not a problem.  The gauge drops the pressure, if you set it to 12 psi and if the tank has something 12 psi or higher, you'll get 12 psi to your keg.  It doesn't matter if the tank is 13 psi, 100 psi, or whatever.
As my CO2 delivery guy told me
Quote
You will not get higher PSI than that in the tank
No you do not have to adjust low pressure psi.
It is always the same if tank is in the fridge or out.
Na Zdravie

On Tap At The TapRoom:
Bohemian Pilsner
Bohemian Dark Lager
Smoked Bock
MaiBock
American Brown Ale
Marzen
Root beer