Author Topic: Brewstrong  (Read 5122 times)

Offline micsager

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1005
    • View Profile
Brewstrong
« on: April 24, 2013, 07:39:27 AM »
I sure don't listen to Brewstrong as much as I did a few years ago.  But, last night while brewing, I listened to the recent Q&A on going pro. 

Jamil was dogging BJCP judges pretty harshly.  Calling them morans more than once.  Has his commercial success gone to his head? 

It put a bad taste in my mouth.  I've always (and probably still do) respect the man very much. 

Anyway, I turned it off, and downloaded one of Brad Smith's podcast. 


Offline klickitat jim

  • I spend way too much time on the AHA forum
  • ********
  • Posts: 2669
    • View Profile
Re: Brewstrong
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2013, 07:54:10 AM »
Hadn't heard it. I guess we can all have bad days. As a new comer to this, I view judges as the priesthood of brewing.  I think its awesome they keep us in line but its fun to do your own thing too. I used crystal in a dark Belgian strong once and it made me feel so naughty lol

"Friends don't let friends drink bad beer"


Offline udubdawg

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 550
    • View Profile
Re: Brewstrong
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2013, 07:55:31 AM »
we're certainly not perfect, and there are some bad apples.  A judge this weekend mentioned that he had lost his sense of smell a few years ago.  Wow, interesting choice of hobby...

but I think we're pretty good, and getting better.  And if I thought poorly of BJCP judges I certainly wouldn't send dozens of entries to NHC...*shrug*

cheers--
--Michael

Offline theDarkSide

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2077
  • Derry, NH
    • View Profile
Re: Brewstrong
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2013, 08:05:13 AM »
I am not a judge or ever judged (hope to change that someday soon) so I wouldn't ever call these guys morons.  Jamil, on several occassions, has opined about some of the judges abilities to fill out scoresheets or their lack of skill in filling out these sheets.  He's even listed examples from nationally ranked judges.

Another area that he's complained about, and Gordon Strong has agreed with, is telling people how they brewed something just by tasting the beer.  His thoughts are how a judge can know a person's specific brewing process by detecting a flaw, when that flaw could be the result of several factors regardless of their process.

One of the reasons I haven't become a BJCP judge yet is I'm not confident in my ability to judge a beer according to style.  I'm trying to increase my knowledge before doing so.  I know there's a seriuos shortage of judges but is it better to have that than a flood of judges who don't know what they're doing.
Sergeant - BNArmy Member
AHA Member
Seacoast Homebrew Club Member
https://www.facebook.com/SeacoastHomebrewClub
Stephen M.
------------------------------------------------

Offline micsager

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1005
    • View Profile
Re: Brewstrong
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2013, 08:20:21 AM »
Yes, constructive criticism of the process should not offend anyone.  But to call BJCP moran's three or four times in less than a minute turned me off.  I am not a judge.  But, I have seen how hard these folks work to provide scoresheets that mean something to the brewer.

I would suggest you go to a comp and volunteer to judge.  They will sit you with experienced judges.  Even as a stewart I have had judges (Gordon Strong being one) that offered me a taste, and described the specific off flavors in that sample.  It was quite educational. 


Offline morticaixavier

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 5697
  • Davis, CA
    • View Profile
    • The Best Artist in the WORLD!!!!!
Re: Brewstrong
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2013, 08:33:21 AM »
Yes, constructive criticism of the process should not offend anyone.  But to call BJCP moran's three or four times in less than a minute turned me off.  I am not a judge.  But, I have seen how hard these folks work to provide scoresheets that mean something to the brewer.

I would suggest you go to a comp and volunteer to judge.  They will sit you with experienced judges.  Even as a stewart I have had judges (Gordon Strong being one) that offered me a taste, and described the specific off flavors in that sample.  It was quite educational.

was he referring to BJCP judges in general or a particular sector? cause I have received some score sheets that might well make me agree with him about certain judges.

BJCP judges are FAR from perfect and national rank does not necessarily imply a higher sensory ability, just a better descriptive and test taking ability and/or dedication to judging.

That said, I respect the effort made and hope to move in that direction  myself soon.

** EDIT TO ADD **

I actually wouldn't call them morons because I don't really see the point of being mean to people in general. It rarely makes any situation better. but I understand the sentiment and Jamil is a kinda gruff guy.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2013, 08:34:54 AM by morticaixavier »
"Creativity is the residue of wasted time" - A. Einstein

Jonathan I Fuller

Offline klickitat jim

  • I spend way too much time on the AHA forum
  • ********
  • Posts: 2669
    • View Profile
Re: Brewstrong
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2013, 09:01:08 AM »
Caveat: I've never been judged

It seems anything can go to far. I enjoy the BJCP style guidelines. However, when it gets to the point that you are arrested as a heretic for using an off style ingredient...

Its good to have rules though. But they don't always have to be followed. Especially if your not competing.

There's also a DIY vs store bought faction. Reinheitsgebot vs fruit and sprinkles crowd. Fun vs serious. Its all good. Keeps it interesting. I remember when it was just beer. Boring!

"Friends don't let friends drink bad beer"


Offline Alewyfe

  • Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 344
  • Fighting for Truth, Justice & Home Brew
    • View Profile
Re: Brewstrong
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2013, 09:53:21 AM »
I am not a BJCP judge. I have judged at sanctioned competitions. I have organized BJCP competitions and I have stewarded at local and NHC level. Some people judging at BJCP level are not doing what they were awarded their credentials for. The score sheets are sorely lacking in useful information and thoroughness.
This is very disappointing to people competing to better their beers. For some judges, it's obvious that judging has become a chore they don't enjoy or take as seriously as they should. They should stop judging.
Fortunately, there are a huge number of qualified judges doing an exemplary job of providing the feedback most of us are competing for. It's the luck of the draw really. Don't give up after one or two crumby experiences. After a while, some of the score sheets become entertaining in what they reveal about the judge!

You can not judge something with no criteria against which to judge. In beer comps it's the style guideline.
Trust me...there is nothing so heartbreaking as tasting an absolutely perfect beer that can't win only because it has been entered in the wrong category, but, there's plenty of opportunity to commend the brewer in the final section of the score sheet. (overall impression)
when you're having to judge it.

Judges do a thankless job, at their own expense. They miss out on some of the activities at NHC and other festivals where the competitions are held. They travel to various locations at their own expense and all they get are measly points toward higher ranking for their efforts. They should never, ever be dissed. Shame on Jamil for doing so. He's undoubtedly a great brewer and I respect that, but it's disappointing to hear that he made disparaging comments when so many homebrewers idolize him. Go ahead and criticize when it is called for. Judges need to be held to high standards if they are going to contribute to the brewing community, but it can be done in a civil and constructive manner. Then again, the whole tenor of the Brewing Network programs is very juvenile, albeit, while providing some good information.

Diane
Roseburg, Oregon
Member: Umpqua Valley Brewers Guild
             Cascade Brewers Society
             AHA

"Growing old is mandatory. Growing up? Definitely optional!"

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 11688
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • View Profile
    • Dennybrew
Re: Brewstrong
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2013, 09:57:06 AM »
We all know that judges aren't perfect, but it seems that Jamil's comments were very impolitic and illustrate the reason I don't listen to BN shows.  I may be missing some good info, but it just insults me as much as television advertising does.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

Offline jeffy

  • Brewmaster General
  • *******
  • Posts: 2448
  • Tampa, Fl
    • View Profile
Re: Brewstrong
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2013, 10:01:41 AM »
Jamil used to say hello and shake my hand at NHC's in the past, but for a couple years he's been distant.  Maybe I'm one of the judges he is ranting about since there's a pretty good chance I judged some of his beer in the finals when he was going for Ninkasi.
The thing about being a beer judge is that it is sorta stressful to judge someone's beer.  You never know if it's Gordon Strong's or Jamil's or some new guy's so you have to be careful of what you write.
High rank in my case simply means that I take tests well and have been around a long time.
I do fill up the entire score sheet, hopefully with pertinent information and use all the clues available to formulate an opinion.
Jeff Gladish, Tampa (989.3, 175.1 Apparent Rennarian)
Homebrewing since 1990
AHA member since 1991, now a lifetime member
BJCP judge since 1995

Online AmandaK

  • Brewmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 942
  • Redbird Brewhouse
    • View Profile
Re: Brewstrong
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2013, 10:14:51 AM »
We all know that judges aren't perfect, but it seems that Jamil's comments were very impolitic and illustrate the reason I don't listen to BN shows.

This is exactly why I don't listen to the BN anymore. Their dick joke to good information ratio is about 10:1 whereas I like it to be more around 1:5.

I have met Jamil a few times, the first time was right before he opened his brewery. We met for beers at the Toranado on Haight St. He was wonderfully nice to me. We talked for hours about beers, breweries and the like. The last time was NHC 2012, where I explained our first meeting again. He simply grunted and turned away. A bit strange if you ask me. So perhaps it isn't just you, jeffy!  ;)

At any rate, I don't think calling judges "morons" is appropriate for all the reasons mentioned above.
Amanda Kertz
Kansas City Bier Meister
BJCP National

Redbird Brewhouse - Current Project: Full Basement Bar Build

Offline narvin

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1233
  • Baltimore
    • View Profile
Re: Brewstrong
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2013, 10:24:59 AM »
Yeah, those judges suck... they expect every beer to taste like Jamil's stupid recipe even though many styles vary greatly  ;D
Please do not reply if your an evil alien!
Thanks
Chris S.

Offline klickitat jim

  • I spend way too much time on the AHA forum
  • ********
  • Posts: 2669
    • View Profile
Re: Brewstrong
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2013, 10:27:06 AM »
Well if anyone needs to be snubbed I'll do it for a cold beer. Can't promise to keep a straight face though.

"Friends don't let friends drink bad beer"


Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • I must live here
  • *****
  • Posts: 11688
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • View Profile
    • Dennybrew
Re: Brewstrong
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2013, 10:33:25 AM »
Well if anyone needs to be snubbed I'll do it for a cold beer. Can't promise to keep a straight face though.

"Friends don't let friends drink bad beer"

Thanks, but I can get it from my club for free!  ;)
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

Offline majorvices

  • Global Moderator
  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *****
  • Posts: 6309
  • Polka. If its too loud you're too young.
    • View Profile
    • Yellowhammer Brewing Company
Brewstrong
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2013, 10:55:45 AM »
We all know that judges aren't perfect, but it seems that Jamil's comments were very impolitic and illustrate the reason I don't listen to BN shows.  I may be missing some good info, but it just insults me as much as television advertising does.

I listened to it for the first year or two when it was "underground" .... when they went with the heavy production and heavy commercial bent I lost inserts. Nothing against those guys, I met a few of them and they were great in person, but the product is not for me, personally. And I guess that's ok. ;)
Keith Y.
Self appointed "All Grain" section pruner