Author Topic: Brewstrong  (Read 5071 times)

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Brewstrong
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2013, 03:52:23 PM »
Brew Strong was never a very good show, IMHO.  Jamil and Justin and the crew had other great shows for a lot of years, but then in the past 3 years or thereabouts, the whole BN thing just kind of flopped, at least that's how it felt for me.  I don't listen to any of it anymore, except maybe the occasional episode from 2007-2008 from the good ole days.  I agree with others that the crap-to-quality ratio has swung too far.  10:1 isn't even close.  It's more like 500:1 these days.

As for judges, I might actually have to agree with Jamil (not personally hearing his actual points being made, but anyway...) that there are a surprising number of crap judges out there.  I say this, and I myself am a Recognized judge (and a damn fine one, at that -- just ask me).  Enter a couple of competitions, and you'll find my opinion about crap judges to be true very quickly when you get scoresheets back that don't make any sense and/or provide zero useful feedback.  Happens everyday, all the time, all over the place.

BJCP will never be perfect.  There are too many thousands of judges and we cannot all be policed, nor should we be.  We are all entitled to our own opinions based on our own experiences and knowledge base, which have an extremely broad range, and some of us write a hell of a lot more than others (ha ha).  All I can try to do as a judge is to dish out the same level of feedback that I would expect if I were entering, or better -- go the extra mile and try to make the homebrew world a better place.  That's what I strive for.

Here is a thought: It is possible to be egotistical, AND to be correct, at the same time.  Occasionally somebody gets it right.  Jamil *might* be one of those guys.  Personally I don't always agree with everything he says, far from it in fact.  But undeniably, he is a pretty smart dude, and he's accomplished a lot.  If it's all gone to his head, well... can you really blame him?  I don't know.  I'm not sure what I'd do in his situation.  It's hard for a camel to get through the eye of a needle and all that.  You also need to remember that Jamil is not Jesus.  He is not to be worshipped.  He is human.  Give him a break!  You don't like what he has to say?  Offended?  Fine, go listen to some other podcast, who cares.  If I were him, I'd expect the same response.

Personally my favorite podcast of all time was Craft Brewer Radio with Graham Sanders.  He was wrong.  A lot.  A ton of technical errors.  But a lot of good tidbits in there too.  And entertaining to listen to.  For educational podcasts, Basic Brewing all the way baby.  Love that one.  It's very dry, but chock full of good info and minimal fluff.  If you don't like Brew Strong, rest assured -- there are many great podcasts out there.
Dave

"This is grain, which any fool can eat, but for which the Lord intended a more divine means of consumption. Let us give praise to our Maker, and glory to His bounty, by learning about... BEER!" - Friar Tuck (Robin Hood - Prince of Thieves)

Offline micsager

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Re: Brewstrong
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2013, 04:17:37 PM »
Thanks for your impassioned views.  I think it's great we have this board to discuss such views.

For me, I agree that Jamil was a skilled homebrewer, and his opinions, views, and outlook continue to be relevant.  But, I have personally witnessed BJCP judges giving their all to this hobby.  And for anyone to call them "morons" is just sick and wrong. 

Without them, and all that support them, the AHA would cease to exist. 


Offline jbthomas69

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Brewstrong
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2013, 05:26:35 PM »
One thing to remember always is that BJCP os judging to style. If you send a West coast APA to Tulsa it will be treated according to their interpretation of style.

If an American judge is tasting Duesseldorf Altbier And hasnt been to Duesseldorf can you fault him for not getting it right?  Their arent good American commercial examples of the style.

Judging is subjective based on tastes and perception. If they charged more for competitions there might be room to complain.




Offline jamminbrew

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Re: Brewstrong
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2013, 05:56:46 PM »
I am not really a fan of Jamil, but I do like John Palmer. I still listen to the Brewstrong, but it is not high on my list. I prefer Brad Smith and Better Brewing Radio.

As far as judging goes, it can be very subjective. I am in classes for BJCP certification. I am currently a provisional judge, and will be taking my tests next month. We have recently been using the Siebel Institute's flaw kit for tasting flaws and other flavors. Everyone has a different threshold for flaws. Some I picked up on right away, some I could not detect, though others could clearly pick up on it. I have judged 2 comps, and did get to try some very off beers. Some were downright horrible. Many homebrewers (myself included) think their beers are the sh!t. One of my categories was English Brown. There were 15 beers in the flight. 8 of them were flawed. 2 were clearly in the wrong category. When you have limited time, and a lot of beers to judge, it can be very difficult to spend a lot of time on writing a full and comprehensive score sheet. Not everyone can get the information they think they should get. 
I also entered my DIPA in two recent comps. One was a state wide comp here in Colorado, and one was the NHC. The local comp scored it a 27 ( one judge was a national) and the NHC scored it a 38. (one judge was a master) Same beer, same batch,same everything. two very different scores. Take your scores with a grain of salt. Not everyone can be a Grand Master.
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In caelo cerivisiae nil, hic igitur bibimus.

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Brewstrong
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2013, 06:11:59 PM »
English Brown? Wouldn't a sh!t beer be a Boneless Brown? I think its 99F

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Offline AmandaK

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Re: Brewstrong
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2013, 05:22:38 AM »
One thing to remember always is that BJCP os judging to style. If you send a West coast APA to Tulsa it will be treated according to their interpretation of style.

If an American judge is tasting Duesseldorf Altbier And hasnt been to Duesseldorf can you fault him for not getting it right?  Their arent good American commercial examples of the style.

This is incorrect.

1) A 'West Coast APA' as I interpret it is edging on being out of style for 10A - Pale Ale anyway (hops edging on IPA, too dry, not enough malt support usually). It should not matter where you send it. The judges MUST use the style guidelines to judge against. If they use "their interpretation of style", then we might as well throw out the guidelines altogether.

2) The same point applies here. It should not matter if you have been straight to the source to try a commercial example. If you can read the guidelines, it states what should be in there. I can't tell you how many times I've sat across from an "experienced judge" who just came back from a trip to Germany. The last one INSISTED that a Düsseldorf Altbier should be musty and papery. Seriously?? If that's what 'going to the source' gets you, I'll stick with the style guidelines instead.
Amanda Kertz
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Offline jeffy

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Re: Brewstrong
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2013, 05:39:35 AM »
One thing to remember always is that BJCP os judging to style. If you send a West coast APA to Tulsa it will be treated according to their interpretation of style.

If an American judge is tasting Duesseldorf Altbier And hasnt been to Duesseldorf can you fault him for not getting it right?  Their arent good American commercial examples of the style.

I can't tell you how many times I've sat across from an "experienced judge" who just came back from a trip to Germany. The last one INSISTED that a Düsseldorf Altbier should be musty and papery.

That's funny.  Our local German restaurant and craft beer bar has gotten kegs from Zum Eurige that were sour.  Once he got one that had a definite Brett character.  It was pretty good, but it was also a mistake.
Jeff Gladish, Tampa (989.3, 175.1 Apparent Rennarian)
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Re: Brewstrong
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2013, 06:41:20 AM »
I can't tell you how many times I've sat across from an "experienced judge" who just came back from a trip to Germany. The last one INSISTED that a Düsseldorf Altbier should be musty and papery. Seriously?
[/quote]

This sounds strangely similar to my point on commercial vs homebrew.

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Offline udubdawg

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Re: Brewstrong
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2013, 08:52:23 AM »
One thing to remember always is that BJCP os judging to style. If you send a West coast APA to Tulsa it will be treated according to their interpretation of style.


This is incorrect.

1) A 'West Coast APA' as I interpret it is edging on being out of style for 10A - Pale Ale anyway (hops edging on IPA, too dry, not enough malt support usually). It should not matter where you send it. The judges MUST use the style guidelines to judge against. If they use "their interpretation of style", then we might as well throw out the guidelines altogether.


Tulsa and KC NHC Category 10A were both full of "hop juice" entrants.  seems to be a new thing.  "Session IPA" I guess.   ::)  Agreed though. 

Offline tschmidlin

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Re: Brewstrong
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2013, 10:03:20 AM »
1) A 'West Coast APA' as I interpret it is edging on being out of style for 10A - Pale Ale anyway (hops edging on IPA, too dry, not enough malt support usually). It should not matter where you send it. The judges MUST use the style guidelines to judge against. If they use "their interpretation of style", then we might as well throw out the guidelines altogether.
I agree to a point, but "moderate to strong" (hop aroma) is a subjective measure, and if the 10th beer in a flight is exactly the same as the 1st beer I suspect it would not taste as hoppy due to palate fatigue.  Plus, like it or not, there are regional judging differences.  I think Mirror Pond has moderate hop aroma - some might think it is strong because they are used to drinking beers with less hops.  That's fine, but if you drink a hop bomb and then try the Mirror Pond it's going to taste malty.
Tom Schmidlin

Offline tomsawyer

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Re: Brewstrong
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2013, 01:43:38 PM »
For the record I am a fairly new judge and I do my best which I'm sure is not good enough for someone like a JZ.  I can live with that.  He can't judge all the beers that need judging.

Having made this admission, I feel that judging beer is subjective and people shouldn't get so worked up about it.  I know there are people out there for whom competition is of paramount importance, but for god's sakes its only a beer.  Even the greatest beer in the world is going to be piss shortly after its consumed.  I'll be happy when the current fad for homebrew contests fades.  Until then I wish the clubs running these contests would limit the number of entries so I wouldn't have to judge ten+ beers per flight.  I don't think I've been to a single comp where there were enough judges, and many have had to resort to enlisting every warm body in the vicinity not just experienced judges.  I also wish BJCP would help by making the certification process a little simpler.  They probably thought they did this with their changes but I don't see where its any easier to get into a tasting exam now.

Blame this rant on JZ.
Lennie
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Offline micsager

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Re: Brewstrong
« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2013, 01:57:39 PM »
Wow, Sometimes I think I should keep my opinions to myself.  I did not mean to generate such a reaction. 

Having said that, I do enjoy lively debate.  And, it's obvious that many do not enjoy the BJCP judging process.  And I can respect that.  But really, as a homebrewer I paid $5-$10 to enter a competition.  Not all that much, and as I stated before, I've witnessed many judgings, and I KNOW FOR CERTAIN that the judges and all involved work very hard to make this as meaningful as possible. 

And what do you really expect for $8?  GABF costs just under $200 to enter.  My own state just started a competition program for pro brewers and it's still $40 an entry.  They judge on BA standards, not BJCP.  I'll be interested to see how our flagship American Amber does. 

The main point I was trying to make is that BJCP judges are some of the best folks I have ever met.  Are they perfect?  No way.  But for such an icon in the homebrewing community to call them morons like JZ did makes him look bad, not the judges. 

(I guess I won't get that tour of the new Heretic brewery) 

Offline repo

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Re: Brewstrong
« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2013, 02:19:54 PM »
Having listened to that episode now, I think you are taking his comments out of context and blowing out of proportion what seemed to me to be a mostly joking yet small slight at judging. He also sincerely says in the same episode that taking the bjcp is something he recommends to aspiring commercial brewers. 

They are trying to be entertaining and funny while also providing some information. They are drinking while doing this as well. It is by no means politically correct nor should it be taken too seriously.

Offline micsager

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Re: Brewstrong
« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2013, 02:34:04 PM »
Having listened to that episode now, I think you are taking his comments out of context and blowing out of proportion what seemed to me to be a mostly joking yet small slight at judging. He also sincerely says in the same episode that taking the bjcp is something he recommends to aspiring commercial brewers. 

They are trying to be entertaining and funny while also providing some information. They are drinking while doing this as well. It is by no means politically correct nor should it be taken too seriously.

Hmmmm.

Thanks for your opinion.  I did not see it the same way.  But, maybe I'm being to hardnosed.  It's happened before.  LOL.

Offline brewmasternpb

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Re: Brewstrong
« Reply #29 on: April 26, 2013, 09:23:48 PM »
I would have to agree with Repo.  It's been a while since I listened to that episode, but I don't remember being offended by it, and I'm usually very critical of anyone who uses name-calling.  It's surprising to me how many people dislike the BN programming, I'm pretty hooked, I haven't listened to Music in a year.  However, this is a great thread, and props to the OP for defending the judges.
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