Author Topic: First Roggenbier  (Read 1601 times)

Offline joe_feist

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First Roggenbier
« on: May 27, 2013, 02:25:43 PM »
Actually, it's my rye beer of any kind. Used the 2010 AHA winning recipe. I've been wanting to do a decoction again anyway and that's in this recipe. Recipe is roughly 45% rye and also called for wheat and flaked rice; so, I thought the rice hulls were a good idea based on what I'd read about using rye-sticky.

The mash and sparge went well until the last 1.5 gallon or so. Everything set like paste, but it finished out OK, just slow and laborious. So, my questions-
1. I know there are lots of folks using rye. Would more rice hulls help?
2. Do you think the wheat added to the slow sparge?
3. I hit the FG I was after, but the wort seemed extra slick. Sorry, that's the best descriptor I can come up with. Is that normal for a rye beer?

The recipe is 43% rye; 15% pilsner; 15% pale malt; 8% crystal; 8% flaked rice; 8% wheat plus the 1lb of rice hulls. FG was 1.060 with a 30 minute rest at 122 and a decoction to bring the mash to 160. That was the recipe, so I went with that. Thought a rest at 153 and then 160 mash out might be better.

Well; it's in the fermentor now, but ideas for next time are appreciated.
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: First Roggenbier
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2013, 07:30:04 PM »
1. I know there are lots of folks using rye. Would more rice hulls help?
2. Do you think the wheat added to the slow sparge?
3. I hit the FG I was after, but the wort seemed extra slick. Sorry, that's the best descriptor I can come up with. Is that normal for a rye beer?

1. A good 1-1.5 lb rice hulls per 5 gallons seems a good amount.  If you don't think that was enough, use a little more next time.
2. Wheat might have hurt, but the rice did as well.  But mostly it's the rye's "fault".
3. Yeah, rye wort and rye beer tends to be thick and slurpy.  The final beer might get this as well, however since you did a 30-minute protein rest that might knock the body down somewhat.  When I brew 40% rye malt beers, they always have a thick slurpy feel to them.  And the foam/head is phenomenal -- you'll never see anything else like it in the world.  That is, IF your protein rest didn't kill it.  As you can see... I would not have recommended the protein rest.

Hope you love it.  I think you will.  I'm sure I would.
Dave

"This is grain, which any fool can eat, but for which the Lord intended a more divine means of consumption. Let us give praise to our Maker, and glory to His bounty, by learning about... BEER!" - Friar Tuck (Robin Hood - Prince of Thieves)

Offline joe_feist

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Re: First Roggenbier
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2013, 04:40:34 AM »
Thanks, Dave. I always appreciate your comments. You may not know me, but I used to hang out on NB's forum a few years ago. Went into exile for whatever reason and I've recently resurfaced.

Checked the fermenter this morning and the yeast is sure chewing things up, so I'll have beer one way or another. This recipe was from 2010. I went back and checked the 2011 recipe (same guys) and they increased the rice hulls to 2 lbs. They changed more than that, so I don't know if it was just because of the rye. I have my opinion, though ;).

Thanks for the re-assurance on the 'slickness.' Not having brewed a rye before, that really threw me. I've read about brewing rye, but that particular detail escaped me. I thought maybe it was just a high protein level and it would come out in the break. I'm anticipating quite the trub level when I rack this off, but that's only my guess based on what I saw go in the fermenter.

On the protein rest, I haven't done one in ages. But, being a new process I thought I'd just follow the recipe as given. What do you think of the high mash temp after the decoction? The recipe called for 30 mins at 165 and that seemed really high. I only hit 160 and since I was already uncomfortable being that high I just left it. Do you think 153 or so would have been more appropriate? What am I trying to accomplish at 160 - 165 other than really increase the un-fermentable sugars?
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.
Mark Twain

Offline kylekohlmorgen

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Re: First Roggenbier
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2013, 05:02:02 AM »
"RICE HULLS, RICE HULLS, RICE HULLS."   - Randy Mosher

I just made the second version of a Pale Ale with 20% rye. I used 2 lbs of rice hulls for a 5 gallon batch. In the first version, I only used 1 pound and sparging was a P.I.T.A.

I also dumped the 1st version because the 'slickness' you're talking about made the beer's bitterness stick to your tongue, not a pleasurable experience. I like the flavor from rye (especially flaked rye), but from now on I will compensate the huge increase in mouthfeel with lower mash temps, simple sugar additions, and/or yeast with high attenuation capabilities. In the next version, I will also reduce the IBUs and the sulfate levels. Bitterness + Slickness = Nastiness. Scientifically Speaking.

The slickness is a turnoff for me in most Roggenbiers, and also in some Rye IPAs/Saisons
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: First Roggenbier
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2013, 05:05:22 AM »
Joe,

I think you are right on the money.  I have never heard of anyone mashing at 165 F before.  It probably kills 90% of the enzymes, and will ensure a very slurpy beer indeed.  I usually mash mine at 148-150 F and I still get plenty of body/mouthfeel, so I can only imagine how thick a rye beer at 160-165 F would be.  I too would have gone with anything from 148-153 F.  Not sure if you're going to like the final gravity of this one.  If not, you could always throw in a pound of cane sugar to jack up the alcohol to the right level, but this still won't reduce the final gravity much if at all.  I do wish you luck -- hopefully I am wrong.
Dave

"This is grain, which any fool can eat, but for which the Lord intended a more divine means of consumption. Let us give praise to our Maker, and glory to His bounty, by learning about... BEER!" - Friar Tuck (Robin Hood - Prince of Thieves)

Offline udubdawg

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Re: First Roggenbier
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2013, 09:11:04 AM »
after judging that beer in 2010 or 2011, I tried to match it with that recipe a few times.  Never came close, and yes, extremely sticky.

Good luck though; will be watching to see how yours comes out.

cheers--
--Michael

Offline joe_feist

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Re: First Roggenbier
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2013, 09:17:28 AM »
Yes to both of you and thanks. I'm thinking the recipe either has a typo and they meant 155 (or 163 or whatever) or they missed a line entering the recipe and 165 was the mash out. I think more rice hulls are in my future. Can't hurt and they're cheap. I'm going to let this go, see what happens and just continue taking good notes...some lessons are harder than others.
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.
Mark Twain

Offline joe_feist

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Re: First Roggenbier
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2013, 05:40:42 PM »
So, the beer of the week on AHA is this recipe. Still has the same rests as when I first brewed it. I've been in the fermenter for a week. Wanted to check the gravity today and broke my hydrometer. Well, I'm sure it'll sit fine until buy another. You can check out my thoughts on hydro meters under my conspiracy thread in Equipment.

I'll hold off further judgement until I try the beer. It smells very clean and looks good. I think it'll have a much different mouthfeel from what I'm used to, though. Well, thanks for listening...
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.
Mark Twain

Offline joe_feist

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Re: First Roggenbier
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2013, 08:39:40 AM »
Update - Bottled the beer today. Hit the FG almost spot on - Target was 1.013 and I hit 1.014, so I'm certainly happy with that. The beer isn't as slurpy as I thought it might be. Aroma - got the cloves/bananna. Taste certainly has the peppery notes (from the rye or yeast?) - I'll have to look into that. The yeast performed well. First time I've used WLP380. It's very cloudy like a Hefeweissen should be. It just rocked the first week.

One thing, the yeast cake was crazy thick. I've started to experiment with washing/saving yeast and I'm sorry I didn't prepare to save this one. Very thick, smooth and smelled great - clean and yeasty. I have my next two batches planned and neither would require WLP380, so I had nothing ready to store this. Next time that will certainly be on my agenda. All in all I'm much more comfortable with this recipe now that I've tasted it. I'll see what it's like after bottle conditioning for a couple weeks, but I could see brewing this again for my clubs Hogtoberfest in late September.
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.
Mark Twain