Author Topic: Basic Yeast Questions  (Read 4385 times)

Offline aschecte

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Re: Basic Yeast Questions
« Reply #30 on: June 11, 2013, 10:53:45 AM »
disregard I see what your referring to..... the link... going to read it right now.
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Offline denny

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Re: Basic Yeast Questions
« Reply #31 on: June 11, 2013, 02:28:31 PM »
Glad ya found it!
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Basic Yeast Questions
« Reply #32 on: June 11, 2013, 04:45:01 PM »
I think pitch rate and fermentor temp can vary type of ester too. Seems like under pitch brings banana and over brings clove, read that somewhere

Online hopfenundmalz

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Re: Basic Yeast Questions
« Reply #33 on: June 11, 2013, 04:53:06 PM »
I think pitch rate and fermentor temp can vary type of ester too. Seems like under pitch brings banana and over brings clove, read that somewhere
Clove is from phenolics, not esters.
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Basic Yeast Questions
« Reply #34 on: June 11, 2013, 05:41:31 PM »
Ah ha. Thanks!

Offline aschecte

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Re: Basic Yeast Questions
« Reply #35 on: June 11, 2013, 07:48:21 PM »
I could be way off but I think I'm on target a low pitch rate causes more esters as they are a by product of the growth phase and a low pitch rate can also cause off flavors.

Take another look at the info from Clayton Cone and Neva Parker in this thread.  There's persuasive evidence that higher pitch rates create more esters.
   Just a FYI I read the links and it actually supports what I wrote about low pitch rates creating higher ester production though I was wrong abut the fusel alcohol which I thought was created with higher pitching rates.  I copied the article and will paste below

Effect of Pitch Rate on Beer Flavor

Pitch rates, in addition to strain, temperature, and gravity, make a dramatic difference in the final flavor and aroma profile of any beer.  The pitch rate will have a direct effect on the amount of cell growth during a fermentation.  Cell growth decreases as pitch rates increase. Ester production is directly related to yeast growth as are most other flavor and aroma compounds.
A low pitch rate can lead to: •Excess levels of diacetyl
•Increase in higher/fusel alcohol formation
•Increase in ester formation
•Increase in volatile sulfur compounds
•High terminal gravities
•Stuck fermentations
•Increased risk of infection
High pitch rates can lead to: •Very low ester production
•Very fast fermentations
•Thin or lacking body/mouthfeel
•Autolysis (Yeasty flavors due to lysing of cells)
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Basic Yeast Questions
« Reply #36 on: June 11, 2013, 08:01:52 PM »
What I have learned from this thread is that I have been under pitching. Now fixed with my stir plates. I'll be aiming at PROPER pitch rates and erring on the slightly over pitch side if anything.

Offline thebigbaker

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Re: Basic Yeast Questions
« Reply #37 on: June 11, 2013, 08:08:37 PM »
I could be way off but I think I'm on target a low pitch rate causes more esters as they are a by product of the growth phase and a low pitch rate can also cause off flavors.

Take another look at the info from Clayton Cone and Neva Parker in this thread.  There's persuasive evidence that higher pitch rates create more esters.
   Just a FYI I read the links and it actually supports what I wrote about low pitch rates creating higher ester production though I was wrong abut the fusel alcohol which I thought was created with higher pitching rates.  I copied the article and will paste below

Effect of Pitch Rate on Beer Flavor

Pitch rates, in addition to strain, temperature, and gravity, make a dramatic difference in the final flavor and aroma profile of any beer.  The pitch rate will have a direct effect on the amount of cell growth during a fermentation.  Cell growth decreases as pitch rates increase. Ester production is directly related to yeast growth as are most other flavor and aroma compounds.
A low pitch rate can lead to: •Excess levels of diacetyl
•Increase in higher/fusel alcohol formation
•Increase in ester formation
•Increase in volatile sulfur compounds
•High terminal gravities
•Stuck fermentations
•Increased risk of infection
High pitch rates can lead to: •Very low ester production
•Very fast fermentations
•Thin or lacking body/mouthfeel
•Autolysis (Yeasty flavors due to lysing of cells)

This is from the Wyeast site that I linked earlier in the thread.  However, Neva Parker's presentation from last year's AHA conference (which you can find on this site) and the links above for Clayton Clone's articles show evidence of low pitch rate = lower esters and vice versa.  Who's right, I don't know.  However, as Jim states, proper pitch rates is my goal and I don't think that if you slightly under or over pitch it's going to make that big of a difference on a homebrew level...at least that's what I've been told.
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Basic Yeast Questions
« Reply #38 on: June 11, 2013, 08:41:09 PM »
My general practice is going to be
Wyeast fresh as possible (less than a month)
2000ml starters with 1.030-40
16-24hrs on stir plate then cold crash in fridge, use within 3-4 days
For ales <1.065 one starter
For lagers or ales >1.065 I'll use two smack packs in two starters

I reserve the right to learn and adjust in the future lol.

Offline aschecte

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Re: Basic Yeast Questions
« Reply #39 on: June 12, 2013, 09:47:34 AM »
I could be way off but I think I'm on target a low pitch rate causes more esters as they are a by product of the growth phase and a low pitch rate can also cause off flavors.

Take another look at the info from Clayton Cone and Neva Parker in this thread.  There's persuasive evidence that higher pitch rates create more esters.
   Just a FYI I read the links and it actually supports what I wrote about low pitch rates creating higher ester production though I was wrong abut the fusel alcohol which I thought was created with higher pitching rates.  I copied the article and will paste below

Effect of Pitch Rate on Beer Flavor

Pitch rates, in addition to strain, temperature, and gravity, make a dramatic difference in the final flavor and aroma profile of any beer.  The pitch rate will have a direct effect on the amount of cell growth during a fermentation.  Cell growth decreases as pitch rates increase. Ester production is directly related to yeast growth as are most other flavor and aroma compounds.
A low pitch rate can lead to: •Excess levels of diacetyl
•Increase in higher/fusel alcohol formation
•Increase in ester formation
•Increase in volatile sulfur compounds
•High terminal gravities
•Stuck fermentations
•Increased risk of infection
High pitch rates can lead to: •Very low ester production
•Very fast fermentations
•Thin or lacking body/mouthfeel
•Autolysis (Yeasty flavors due to lysing of cells)

This is from the Wyeast site that I linked earlier in the thread.  However, Neva Parker's presentation from last year's AHA conference (which you can find on this site) and the links above for Clayton Clone's articles show evidence of low pitch rate = lower esters and vice versa.  Who's right, I don't know.  However, as Jim states, proper pitch rates is my goal and I don't think that if you slightly under or over pitch it's going to make that big of a difference on a homebrew level...at least that's what I've been told.

Agreed Who is right ? IDK either from my experience I have zero input because I always properly pitch so it has never been a issue for me. That said bottom line who cares about the effect of over or under pitching ? Just do it right and get a good beer in the end.
don't worry I'll drink it !!

Online hopfenundmalz

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Re: Basic Yeast Questions
« Reply #40 on: June 12, 2013, 10:16:20 AM »
I have not been able to get the right fruity aromas in my TTL clone. The last time was a 25% over pitch. Next time will be under pitched if that does the trick.


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Offline denny

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Re: Basic Yeast Questions
« Reply #41 on: June 12, 2013, 10:39:00 AM »
I definitely started finding my beers cleaner when I stopped using the entire slurry from a previous batch and started using only 1/3-1/2 of the slurry.  So, in a way, I found my own proof.
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Offline DrewG

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Re: Basic Yeast Questions
« Reply #42 on: June 12, 2013, 12:30:20 PM »
Quote
My general practice is going to be
Wyeast fresh as possible (less than a month)
2000ml starters with 1.030-40
16-24hrs on stir plate then cold crash in fridge, use within 3-4 days
For ales <1.065 one starter
For lagers or ales >1.065 I'll use two smack packs in two starters

I reserve the right to learn and adjust in the future lol.

I just use the calculator. For instance, for a 1.055 ale with a 3 week old vial you'd only need a 1L starter on a plate to produce the 211 billion cells you need in a 5.5 gallon ferment. Saves on the DME, too.
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Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Basic Yeast Questions
« Reply #43 on: June 12, 2013, 02:40:34 PM »
I hear ya, but the white labs lady says 1000ml is waste of time

Offline joe_feist

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Re: Basic Yeast Questions
« Reply #44 on: June 12, 2013, 04:13:36 PM »
;)
I definitely started finding my beers cleaner when I stopped using the entire slurry from a previous batch and started using only 1/3-1/2 of the slurry.  So, in a way, I found my own proof.

I think that's right and is in line with what Chris White says in his book. Find what works in your system and be consistent. Adjust from there. Honestly, I don't know that I could compare "half the slurry" in your system to mine... As we're probably 1,000 miles apart and I've never had the privelage.
I also think Jim's process is a great place to start and I'll probably steal it...but don't tell any body ;)
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